30 cal slob
Member
interesting.
how does one connect Moral Relativism to being anti-gun?
how does one connect Moral Relativism to being anti-gun?
My Convo with a European Anti
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barman
Member
It's a a by-product of the 60s. It gave birth to the "law abiding citizen no better than a criminal" mentality.
I think (maybe I'm wrong) it's all about discharging any responsability for your actions on the way society shaped your way of thinking. Think Rousseau. Lots of people will try to understand the criminal's motivation before understanding the motivations of the person defending his turf or his life.
Moral relativists believe that everything can be resolved through dialogue, thus guns are inherently counter-productive. They believe that if each person understands the other person's position, conflict will evaporate.
A gun owner who's ready to use his gun in order to protect his life is obviously defending his own position to an extreme and obviously does not believe that dialogue can solve all problems.
NOW I'm sounding pedantic, ain't I?
I think (maybe I'm wrong) it's all about discharging any responsability for your actions on the way society shaped your way of thinking. Think Rousseau. Lots of people will try to understand the criminal's motivation before understanding the motivations of the person defending his turf or his life.
Moral relativists believe that everything can be resolved through dialogue, thus guns are inherently counter-productive. They believe that if each person understands the other person's position, conflict will evaporate.
A gun owner who's ready to use his gun in order to protect his life is obviously defending his own position to an extreme and obviously does not believe that dialogue can solve all problems.
NOW I'm sounding pedantic, ain't I?
cambeul41
Member
Pedantic, perhaps. But it makes sense.
Nolo
Member
I like to think of myself as a relatively prejudice-free man (which, if you knew me, would make you laugh hysterically. In truth, I only allow myself one prejudice, purely for my own enjoyment and related to no facts or anything else, and that is of the French [sorry barman]), so I'd like to say that there are no "European Antis" or "French Antis" or anything else. Cultural, racial, and sectional adjectives are meaningless, there are only people, no European people or Asian people or anything else. having said that, there is an extreme sectionalism that exists in the Old World, and, it seems to me, that it is slowly invading our country. Which disturbs me. Or maybe I'm just paranoid.
barman
Member
Nolo, you know what, the feeling is mutual.
It's globalisation.
If only people could just stay the way they are without being exposed to constant external influence, the world wouldn't be as ****ed up as it is nowadays.
I very often say to people: I don't hate any ethnic group in particular, in fact I like most of them when they stay at home and don't try to change my way of life.
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Admittedly I've never gone around asking people "If someone was trying to rape/murder your mother, would you be willing to shoot the perp to stop him?"
But I am sure that if I did, answers like that given by this girl would be a very, very tiny minority. Even in Europe.
But I am sure that if I did, answers like that given by this girl would be a very, very tiny minority. Even in Europe.
30 cal slob
Member
i'm not sure it boils down to "what makes sense" for antis.
rather, i have a hunch a lot can be explained by how they feel.
rather, i have a hunch a lot can be explained by how they feel.
Ghost Tracker
Member
Moral Relativism isn't just a European trend. I suggest we get them all together so they can fly to Iran and address the Islamic Extremism issue with a nice dialogue. If it works? GREAT! If it doesn't...then we're rid of them & it kinda' shoots their theory in the foot.
TooTaxed
Member
You have to remember...there are foolish young things just like her here in the United States.
Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:
Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:
TooTaxed
Member
You have to remember...there are foolish young things just like her here in the United States.
Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:
Regrettably. And they will vote here. :banghead::banghead:
Houston Tom
Member
I think it is a cutural thing that exiest in Europe and I am afraid coming here as well that the government can/should take care of you. I was in Brussels a couple of years ago and ended up spending time in this english pub lots of expats both english and others. When they learned I was from Texas they all told me how they watched Dallas (go figure) and eventually the conversation got around to guns, did I have any, how many when I told them about how many I had they were floored and I was asked what if someone broke into my home they were eaually dismaid at my answer 'I would shot them". Then one asked why I would not run out the back and call the police that is their job. The more we talked the more it became clear that self reliance, responsibility and the home is your castle thing was a concept they could not in any way understand. THe only one there that understood was an Aussie and he told me don't let them do to you guys (Americans) what they did to us and take our guns.
Houston Tom
Member
:banghead:
Ghost Tracker
Member
Any Government powerful enough to give you everything you want...is powerful enough to take away everything that you have.
Thomas Jefferson*
(* I think. I was either him or a "Hillary in '08" Bumper Sticker)
Thomas Jefferson*
(* I think. I was either him or a "Hillary in '08" Bumper Sticker)
matt87
Member
Not all 'Europeans' are of that opionon I would point out. Not all British too. I am British. My passport has 'European' on the front cover vom. I support and believe in the RKBA. Ditto my girlfriend. My dad has some sort of Doublethink where he sort of supports gun control but wants to be able to own a firearm for home defense. Dad didn't teach me to think that way, he and mum taught me to think for myself (Well, perhaps Mum less so).
When I met my girlfriend she was fairly fence-sitting erring on the side of being pro, but had the typical 'them AMericans and their guns' atitude we get far too much of over here. She enjoyed what shooting she'd done (her dad's airguns mainly). I discussed (firearms) things with her when they came up but left her to her own decisions. Couple of months ago, she was rather dismayed to find out it would be illegal for her to own a gun for home defense in this country... and once or twice we have discussed the possibility of emigrating. (Not able to yet; things aren't bad enough for us to sever our many ties, plus we have other commitments.) I introduced her to my rifle club and she loves it and is a very promising shot...
In conclusion, I think we have a similar situation to you in the US with regards to pro/anti; some die-hard antis, a certain number of pros, but the vast majority being fence-sitters. Some may fall on the anti side and be swayed by emotive words and phrases yet be re-educated without too much effort, some may fall on the pro side but be persuaded to turn in their 28"-barelled O/U 12-bore they use for shooting clays without much emtional rhetoric. The difference is, how many people fall on which side of the fence, and how much they can affect the guberment.
vom. I support and believe in the RKBA. Ditto my girlfriend. My dad has some sort of Doublethink where he sort of supports gun control but wants to be able to own a firearm for home defense. Dad didn't teach me to think that way, he and mum taught me to think for myself (Well, perhaps Mum less so).When I met my girlfriend she was fairly fence-sitting erring on the side of being pro, but had the typical 'them AMericans and their guns' atitude we get far too much of over here. She enjoyed what shooting she'd done (her dad's airguns mainly). I discussed (firearms) things with her when they came up but left her to her own decisions. Couple of months ago, she was rather dismayed to find out it would be illegal for her to own a gun for home defense in this country... and once or twice we have discussed the possibility of emigrating. (Not able to yet; things aren't bad enough for us to sever our many ties, plus we have other commitments.) I introduced her to my rifle club and she loves it and is a very promising shot...
In conclusion, I think we have a similar situation to you in the US with regards to pro/anti; some die-hard antis, a certain number of pros, but the vast majority being fence-sitters. Some may fall on the anti side and be swayed by emotive words and phrases yet be re-educated without too much effort, some may fall on the pro side but be persuaded to turn in their 28"-barelled O/U 12-bore they use for shooting clays without much emtional rhetoric. The difference is, how many people fall on which side of the fence, and how much they can affect the guberment.
Ghost Tracker
Member
My stance hasn't the foggiest thing to do with the Sporting Purpose of Firearms. It has to do with the fact that the Police have the job of investigating crime & arresting criminals. It's NOT their job to protect me or to stop crime as it's happening. It's MY job to protect myself, my family & my property. And that's MUCH easier with several guns. An armed populace also deters attack from other countries (ask the Japanese in WWII). Lastly, I fear any government that fears my firearms.
matt87
Member
Who said anything about sporting purpose? I've followed much of this thread and don't remember a single instance. I certainly didn't mention sport other than a brief mention of clays and target rifle. The point of my post (which I hope you'll appreciate if you'd read it) is that not all Euros/Brits are government-worshipping spineless slaves who would not defend themselves. RKBA is a natural extension of this, it's just that re-education (possible) is required.
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