Met an Anti yesterday.......

[Paladin7]

Billmanweh, I think there is a big difference between forgiveness and self preservation. Although that point of view has been taken by a few sects of Christianity and is understandable, the Bible is very clear about the right of self protection.

The Fifth Commandment is Thou shalt not murder in Ex 20:13 not Thou shalt not kill as it is sometimes erroneously translated.

Christ Himself told his disciples to take a sword (even to sell other posessions to buy one) when He instructed them what to do upon His captivity in Luke 22:36.

The Old Testament Civil Law also placed high value on innocent human life and proscribed death for the taking of a human life. Interestingly enough this penalty also applied to the taking of an unborn life. See Ex 21:22-25.

There are more examples, but these are the ones that immediately came to mind.

All the Best,

Paladin7

 

[harpethriver]

Billmanweh-At the risk of being crude and sacreligious if she's being biblical she's confused "turn the other cheek" with "bend over and grab your cheeks".

 

[Billmanweh]

I agree that forgiveness and self-preservation are two completely different animals. And I'm by no means a christian, so I'm not the best person to make the argument. But jesus' teachings are certainly *not* clear on the topic of self protection.


Matthew 5:38-44

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you.

 

[mountainclmbr]

I have a neighbor who is an anti. She is a retired social worker and has said that she would reason with someone rather than use a gun to protect herself. It is good to know this because Mr. Darwin would be spinning in his grave if I accidently protected her.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Quote:
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But jesus' teachings are certainly *not* clear on the topic of self protection.
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Luke 22,36: "He said to them, 'But now one who has a moneybag should take it, and likewise a sack, and one who does not have a sword should sell his cloak and buy one.'"

Jesus differintiates between aggressive acts that are tr4ivial (taking someone to court, slapping someone's face) and life-threatening acts. The former should be borne humbly. The latter cannot be borne, and you must have a sword.

 

[Art Eatman]

I think it's a bit of a mistake to see this purely in terms of "anti-gun". Some believe it's just not right to take another human's life, regardless of circumstance. The first time I ran into this, I was "puredee" startled!

The vignette:

I was newly married when I began my senior year in college in the fall of 1961. I owned no firearms then; just too darned poor. I did have some good knives, including a Filipino "barong", of some 20" of heavy blade.

There had been some burglaries and breakins around campus. At a small gathering for drinks at our apartment I commented that if I woke at 3AM and heard noises in the living room--and knew it wasn't my wife--somebody might possibly find his head separated from the rest of his body.

The same sorts of comments and questions arose, mostly of the "How could you take another's life?" style.

Guns never entered into the discussion...

Art

 

[Mr Kablammo]

Check out "Raging Against Self-Defense" at www.jpfo.org. Many dittos to cogent remarks in above thread.

 

[t-stox]

help a n008 out! what does molon labe mean? sounds like a womans body parts or something

 

[7.62FullMetalJacket]

Thanks 45R,

Some people believe that the taking of human life, even in self-defense, is verboten. Whether amoral or immoral is another argument. But to throw your daughter's security, and possibly life, away; a person you raised and for which you have responsibility for protecting until such time that they can make such decisions, is disgusting. If she was not lying to win the argument, then I pity her (well I pity her anyway).

I have had discussions with anti's before, but never to this level of depravity.

 

[Treylis]

t-stox:

It means "come and get them".

An explanation

 

[BerettaNut92]

I know not about Stacy, but her mom has it going on

Seriously, if these people are so unreasonable, how do you expect to win them over? I have a few acquaintances who are that emotional and postmodern , I remain courteous with them but keep them at arm's length.

 

[Billmanweh]

Vern, we'll just have to agree to disagree


And while I would agree with Art that having a philosophical problem with taking another person's life (for any reason) is not anti-gun...

when you cross the line and impose the same restriction on me, I'd say it is.

 

[Marko Kloos]

I can top that story with one from my ex-wife.

My ex is a staunch gun hater. I had a discussion on self-defense with her once, after reading about a carjacking where the perp dragged a little child to death in the commission of the act.

I asked her whether she would shoot a carjacker if it was the only thing that could save the life of her child.

Her response, and I am citing verbatim:

"I'd rather have my child and myself killed than having to let him grow up with the knowledge that his mother killed someone."

Boy, am I glad I never had children with her. One can only hope that she doesn't choose to propagate her genetic material.

You have the right to throw away your life, if your conscience dictates that you never employ force in self-defense. You do not have the right to throw away the life of your child along with your own.

 

[greyhound]

Had a big moment with my folks at Xmas. Sainted GF had flown down to Alabama for a month so MY folks finally got to ask me whats been bugging them for a while: "So XXX's parents carry guns in their glove compartments"?....

A little discussion and then the Old Man says, "Hey, we've got no problem with that, its just not done around here". Made me feel good. Now if only I can get good ole Mom to not consider my Mosin-Nagant an "assault rifle" because it has a bayonet....

(on the other hand, I guess back in the day a M-N sure WAS an assault rifle, just not compared to today's arms.)

(and also, yeah I've been working on the Sainted GF's parents to not just leave their firearms in their vehicles. They don't know how fortunate they are to be able to defend themselves!).

 

[TimH]

45R I got into a similar discussion with a woman I work with. She said the exact same thing. Wouldn't shoot an attacker nor would she use any other means to defend herself like a ball bat, knife etc. In the end I just shook my head told her there was no way that if someone attacked she wouldn't fight back. Your basic survival instincts kick in. You're gonna fight.

 

[Norton]

I almost have an easier time with folks who are 100% against guns than I do the people who sit on the fence and waffle. For instance my folks: Won't have a gun, seem perplexed as to why I have a stable of firearms, in fact Mom is downright horrified......yet buy me 400 rounds of 9mm for Christmas

Look, if Stacy or others of her ilk choose to not have firearms, that's fine and I can respect that choice just as I respect those who choose not to drink. The problem I have, and I suppose most of us here think the same, is when they want to apply their beliefs to our lives.

Don't want a gun?.....fine....it leaves more for me

 

[Ryder]

Prime for victimization. A criminals dream come true. Does she know she is being actively hunted?

I once met a girl who claimed to have been raped twice in the previous week by different men. She exuded helplessness. She was safe around me but I couldn't put enough distance between us fast enough. Felt like she might be contagious.

 

[Alan Fud]

Posted by Billmanweh: ... Could it have been a religious objection? Isn't one of the basic tennants of christianity to turn the other cheek and forgive? There's the bible story where the men come to take jesus to his death and peter cuts the guard's ear off with his sword. Jesus tells him "no more of this" and restores the ear ...

I don't know about other Christian religions but according to the "Official Catechism of the Catholic Church", as found in Part 3, Section II, Chapter 2, Article V, Paragraphs 2264-2265 ... "Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's. Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for someone responsible for another's life, the common good of the family or of the community." -- so defense of self and others is not only a right but a duty!

 

[Billmanweh]

well, she obviously wasn't catholic

 

[benEzra]

Billmanweh,

Christianity teaches humility and graciousness in the face of insults, fraud, and hatred. Many Christians throughout history have also submitted graciously to state-sponsored violence against them (from the Romans on down to the present day), hence the word "martyr" (derived from the Latin for "witness," IIRC). However, nowhere do the Scriptures state that we are required to submit to those trying to do serious bodily harm to us or to those under our protection. Christianity modifies and qualifies, but does not nullify, the strong Judaic tradition of the righteousness of self-defense and the defense of family. While there are indeed Christians who do advocate pacifism (e.g., Mennonites, many in the "religious left," etc.), Christians as a demographic group tend to show stronger support for self-defense, and have higher rates of gun ownership, than, say, atheists.

Regarding pacifism, I strongly feel that every pacifist must face the fact that they are saying to those under their care--even their own children--that "if someone comes to hurt you, I will NOT protect you. I will deliberately allow you to be killed, raped, or tortured rather than lift a finger to intervene." Some pacifists really feel this strongly, but most have never thought about the ramifications.

The following link contains an image of the true face of pacifism--a young woman and child who were deliberately allowed to die at the hands of criminals because their protectors deliberately chose not to protect them. (Warning--image is graphic, although black and white.)

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/elim_massacre.htm

If someone would deliberately allow that to happen to their own wife and child rather than lift a finger to protect them . . . they are a true pacifist. I would NEVER make that choice, and neither would any other Christian I know.

 

[P95Carry]

I have an old friend who all but has this mind set ... and seemingly no amount of explanation and logic will sway him ...... I try and avoid any gun discussions with him now ... he is otherwise a fine fellow but this does make for a wall somewhat.

He too is almost one who would rather be beaten, stabbed or shot ... than defend himself ... at least not kill. He also has that wonderful ''other'' view too .... ''If you carry a gun you are asking to be shot''!!

Hey Ho ....... :banghead:

 

[Billmanweh]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to make the case that christians shouldn't defend themselves. I am only saying that if you study jesus' teachings in the new testament, it's ambigious at best whether he is endorsing the act of defending yourself. That's clear from just the one quote I posted.

Having said that...

I'm an atheist and a gun owner, so I have no personal stake in the discussion either way.

 

[dbjack46]

What a frustrating experience to spoil a friendly family dinner. She was nothing less than a gun control bigot and no amount of logical, rational, intellectual interaction with people like her seems to affect their position. She may someday experience violent crime up close and personal and when you see her afterwords her comment might be something like, "golly, I never imagined there were people like that in the world." Rose colored blinders...My sympathies go out to you.

 

[Grey54956]

I am a Lapsed Catholic... I go to church regularly (once or twice a year)...

I find that a lot of Christians, including catholics, largely subscribe to pacifism to some degree. Most Christians, however, know the details of their particular religions' rules about as well as most Americans know their local, state, and federal laws. That is to say, they understand some of the genral ideas, but almost none of the particulars.

Christians need not be pacifists, but that is a popular interpretation on Christ's teachings. More detailed analysis will point to the interpretation already explained here. For most trivial matters, turn the other cheek. People are not infalible, and you should give them the benefit of the doubt. However, if someone seeks to murder you or your fellows, defense is very legitimate, if not obligatory.

The problem with pacifists is that alot of them feel that harming someone for any reason is morally and spiritually taboo, and would bar them from a shiny, happy afterlife. For this reason, many are happy to let themselves, their family, and so forth, be tortured and killed. They believe they will be rewarded with an eternal life of eating bon-bons.

However, it is my sincere belief that God, should he exist, hates cowards.

P.S. I find it interesting how horribly the pacifist nature of the afterlife and its entrance criteria is compared to that of the radical islamist.

Hmmmm... If the jews had guns, they may have all been killed. But at least they would have gone down fighting. "Take some with you!"

 

[WvaBill]

45R

Met an Anti yesturday.......

Mountainclimbr

I have a neighbor who is an anti.

What do they look like?

Marko

My ex is a staunch gun hater.

My wife doesn't like me to clean my guns if she's in the room. But OTOH, a couple of years ago she came in from shopping, had beeen followed at the mal with some, aahh, youths with attitudes, and said she sure wished I had been with her because she would have felt better with a means of defense if the attitudes had turned to actions.

Half a loaf better than none?