My home invasion last night. What are the odds?

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Is the difference that that shooter had just committed mass murder in a semi-public place, as opposed to a family in their home?

It's much more subjective then that. The difference is whatever the authorities who will make prosecuting decisions want it to be. It is simply impossible to write a law that covers every possible situation. Ultimately what constitutes imminent danger of death or great bodily harm will be decided by the authorities who's job it is to prosecute and then the court that will hear the case if it is prosecuted. The best thing I can tell you is that you need to apply the "reasonable man" rule when you make any decision to use deadly force. There is no checklist in the law that says the use of deadly force is always legal in this situation. Each situation is different and what the police and the prosecutor look at is the circumstances that led up to the use of deadly force and how the law applies to them. Political and local community standards also figure into those decisions but those things are so variable it's not worth discussing them. There is no statute of limitations on murder. So if one prosecutor thinks it was legally justified, the next prosecutor might not. Darren Wilson (the Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown in 2014) can tell you all about this. A grand jury didn't indict him for that shooting. Then a new prosecutor (Wesley Bell) was elected in St Louis County on the campaign promise to re-open the case. Wilson was put back into limbo on if he would be charged for two years until the new prosecutor decided he couldn't convict Wilson if he charged him with murder. That was what Bell released to the public, not that Wilson's shooting was legally justified, but that there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction.

Texas, only, and under very limited circumstances, only.

Illinois also:
https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/il...&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=8300000&SeqEnd=9900000
(720 ILCS 5/7-3) (from Ch. 38, par. 7-3)
Sec. 7-3. Use of force in defense of other property.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with either real property (other than a dwelling) or personal property, lawfully in his possession or in the possession of another who is a member of his immediate family or household or of a person whose property he has a legal duty to protect. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
(b) In no case shall any act involving the use of force justified under this Section give rise to any claim or liability brought by or on behalf of any person acting within the definition of "aggressor" set forth in Section 7-4 of this Article, or the estate, spouse, or other family member of such a person, against the person or estate of the person using such justified force, unless the use of force involves willful or wanton misconduct.
(Source: P.A. 93-832, eff. 7-28-04.)


Very limited circumstances. In Illinois forcible felonies are:
https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/il...&ChapterID=53&SeqStart=1000000&SeqEnd=5200000
(720 ILCS 5/2-8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2-8)
Sec. 2-8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
(Source: P.A. 88-277; 89-428, eff. 12-13-95; 89-462, eff. 5-29-96.)


You might note that burglary and residential burglary are forcible felonies. But they have a very different definition in Illinois law then trespass does. So if you find someone in your detached garage, barn, machine shed or other real property, you can't just assume he's a burglar. First you have to know what burglary is in Illinois. Let's look at that for a minute:

https://www.ilga.gov/legislation/il...hapterID=53&SeqStart=63000000&SeqEnd=63800000

(720 ILCS 5/Art. 19 heading) ARTICLE 19. BURGLARY
(720 ILCS 5/19-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 19-1)
Sec. 19-1. Burglary.
(a) A person commits burglary when without authority he or she knowingly enters or without authority remains within a building, housetrailer, watercraft, aircraft, motor vehicle, railroad car, or any part thereof, with intent to commit therein a felony or theft. This offense shall not include the offenses set out in Section 4-102 of the Illinois Vehicle Code.


I referenced a local case where this came into play in an earlier post. I'm sure most people have seen the movie HEAT. Do you remember the scene when the LAPD has the crew inside the building as they are burning the safe, the crew gets spooked and leaves without taking anything and they aren't arrested because the only charges they had on them were breaking and entering and trespass. Misdemeanors........That's a good example of what comes into play here. To be justified in using deadly force on someone you find on your property you have to be able to prove they were there to commit a forcible felony.

This is one of the reasons we have the rule about quoting law. It's too easy for a lay person to read the part about use of force to protect other property and look up forcible felony and see burglary on the list. Said lay person discovers someone in their detached garage, assumes that they have a burglar and shoots the person. But....they forgot to look up what the elements of the crime of burglary are, now they have shot a trespasser......That's a big opps...a life changing opps. Even peace officers who receive 40 hours of criminal law in the academy and regular in service updates can't know all of the laws and how they are applied. In many cases even the states attorneys can't keep it all in their head. I've had conferences with the states attorney where we discussed a case and the states attorney broke out the statute and then did an online search for court interpretations of the statute while deciding what charges to bring.

You simply don't have the time to do that in a situation where you might have to use deadly force, even if you do have a good enough legal background to make the right choice. Just because you think the law means something after you've read it, the courts may (and in many cases have) ruled that the law doesn't mean exactly what it says in the statute. You have no way of knowing that from reading the statute alone.

A mistake will change your life forever.......
 
I’m sorry, I didn’t make it clear what scenario. I meant Goo Ol Boys scenario posted above about if he came around the corner and had someone on his property.



That's not at all what I said.

I was specifically talking about an unwanted person INSIDE THE HOME.

I'm not speaking on this subject anymore. You guys do want you want and I'll do the same.
 
That's not at all what I said.

I was specifically talking about an unwanted person INSIDE THE HOME.

I'm not speaking on this subject anymore. You guys do want you want and I'll do the same.
My apologies. I took “walk around the corner of my home” to mean the outside.
 
For those who may not understand this, forcible felonies are not classified as property crimes. The reason that deadly force may be justified forcible felonies in which the taking of property may well the primary motive, such as a robbery, arson, burglary, etc., is the threat to persons.

In those circumstances, the actor is not considered to be defending property.

That's what sets Texas apart from all the other states and all the territories.

In Texas, one may even use deadly force to prevent theft, under limited circumstances.

I wouldn't, considering the severity of the risk and the probable costs in therms of time, money, and other things.

One may not use deadly force to prevent or terminate trespass in Texas.
 
There is no statute of limitations on murder. So if one prosecutor thinks it was legally justified, the next prosecutor might not. Darren Wilson (the Ferguson police officer who shot Michael Brown in 2014) can tell you all about this. A grand jury didn't indict him for that shooting. Then a new prosecutor (Wesley Bell) was elected in St Louis County on the campaign promise to re-open the case. Wilson was put back into limbo on if he would be charged for two years until the new prosecutor decided he couldn't convict Wilson if he charged him with murder. That was what Bell released to the public, not that Wilson's shooting was legally justified, but that there wasn't enough evidence to secure a conviction.
That bears repeating.

That's why "he was cleared by the sheriff [or the D/A]" which we hear so often in accounts of use of force incidents, may not describe the end of the story.
 
Maybe I missed something, but how is it that "Jimmy" made it to your door and into your house from a squad car before the deputies did? Why would any pofessional LEO let him go by himself in that condition, knowing he is a mental patient, without first knocking on your door and asking to talk with the man or woman of the house??

I see gross GROSS negligence here on the part of the deputies, even if "Jimmy" was ultimately harmless.
You did miss it. I explained it in 2 posts. The first post:
But I also know from experience that psych patients can take a completely random object and make up a vague yet believable story about that object without missing a beat. Turns out, that’s exactly what happened.

Jimmy had gotten into a domestic with his mother. Apparently this happens a lot but the mother always refuses to press any charges. The deputy responds and upon refusal to press charges asks if there is anywhere he can take him for the night. Jimmy says he has a place he can stay so they load up and start driving. Jimmy gave him directions to our house. Didn’t drive around and randomly pick one. He told him what specific roads to take and which specific house. When they arrived here, the deputy inquired about the vehicles in the driveway. Jimmy instantly said one was his sisters and the other was her boyfriend Jeremy. He also said they had crazy dogs. Well, my Catahoula and St. Dane were barking like crazy. We have a lot of coyotes around because we live in a rural area so it’s not uncommon for them to bark at night. And they have puppies so they’re extra territorial.

And post #20:
But many Officers and Deputies don’t understand the dynamics of psych patients. It took me years of 6-7 days a week and 12 hours a day with them to learn. And I was always paying attention. I actually listened to their stories, and was fooled more than a few times for the first few years. Like I said, some psych patients can take a random object and give you a vague yet believable story about it at the instant they see it. He gave directions to my house. He had names for the owners of the vehicles in the driveway. Even mentioned the crazy dogs. All in a matter of seconds. All believable.

So yes, he didn’t follow procedure and he should have. But I understand. Until you’ve worked psych, it just hard to understand. As an officer, most want nothing to do with them. I don’t mean the ones who are depressed and having a hard time coping and cry out for help. I mean the truly active psychosis patients. Imagine a 25 year old who has full functioning verbal and motor skills, has the mental capacity and attention span of a 2 year old. There is no reasoning with them. They get into EVERYTHING. The don’t listen no matter how forceful you are. Most of the time they don’t bathe. But they’re adults so if their family (usually mother) try to make them, now they’re fighting with a 2 year old that has the size and strength of an adult. They can hurt you. And because you got the call, now you not only have to deal with them at the scene, you have to take them to the hospital (if they are showing any aggression because EMS won’t transport violent mental health patients) for a mental health evaluation. So you get to sit with them the entire time they are waiting for the LMHP (Licensed Mental Health Professional) to show up. That can take hours. And then, unless the ER doc snows them (gives them a bunch of medication like Haldol, Thorazine, Zyprexa, Ativan, or Geodon) you get to transport them to the nearest Mental
Health facility that will accept them. Where I worked, we got patients from SE Kansas, SW Missouri, NW Arkansas, and and as far away as OKC. OKC is 140+ miles away. So just transporting alone, not including the on scene time, or the ER time, you’re looking at 4 hours driving time. And cop cars, for some reason, have a tendency to make them urinate and defecate on themselves.

Good times right?
 
In Texas, one may even use deadly force to prevent theft, under limited circumstances.
I found it. That’s really interesting. It’s actually a good example of why the law cannot give 100% specifics. Don’t know how you’re supposed to make the proper identification under the specific circumstances. But the 3rd step does give some leeway.
 
Something I think I should add to my original reply is: You asked what are the odds this could happen. Well... Not one of you but BOTH of you is in the profession of psychiatric care, right? That doubles the odds of just one of you having an experience like that. I'm not even a professional and I know that nearly all people, whether they be just in voluntary therapy, committed to an institution, or somewhere in between...form some kind of personal feelings for the professionals who help them or provide much needed direction or structure in their lives. In many cases the patient is an adult in mentality, and is not a certified basket case just a person in need of a little direction or counseling. Many such people are probably fully aware of their feelings and how to appropriate them. So they likely dont let their feelings for their counselor run away with them. However, from what I understand, you and your wife BOTH deal with fully institutionalized people with big problems. With all due respect, your job must not be an easy one (or shouldn't be). I have known several people involved with either psychiatric or correctional institutions. I havent done the job but I know what it entails. I think if you work in this capacity you should anticipate the possibilty of something like this happening and not be so incredulous. If you think it so far fetched, maybe youre in the wrong profession. As disturbing as their inner world may be, these patients are not just cases, theyre people...with souls and feelings and many of them depend on the care they get from people like you to keep them from destroying themselves or making bad decisions. In spite of that dependence, they are not neccessarily stupid or oblivious, and they naturally form attachments to the people who help them. This is not rare, this is common. Keep that in mind.
 
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