My Krazy Cowboy Carbine idea

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If the "heat shield" ,or "barrel shroud", was not meant to be "gripped", then 90% of the websites that sell the item for AR rifles and pistols, would not label the part as a "Handguard", duh!! The fact that the BATFE has not classified all these afore mentioned pistols(Sig556, AR Pistol, AK pistol) as AOW's, seems to hinge on the fact that they are more concerned with vertical pistol grips(or grips perpindicular to bore axis)on handguns. How or why this makes a pistol "more evil" in their eyes, is up for debate; but every AOW that I've ever seen(not counting oddities ie; pen guns,camera guns, and the like) , be it shotgun, handgun, or made from a virgin EBR receiver, has had a PERMANENTLY attatched grip, that may be able to fold, but can be used Perpindicular to bore axis. Forward grips are fine, just not if they are, or can be used Perpindicular to the bore axis.

The handgun, technically pistol (because it can be gripped by two hands) on the first page IS NOT classifiable as an AOW under BATFE's current interpretation of the law.

BATFE has the power to change their mind at any time on this matter, but for now, it is, what it is...


Still 2 Many Choices!?
 
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Hey Jmorris - thanks - will lead buildup in the suppressor be bad with cast bullets, *even* if subsonic loads, you think?
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Yes, this is why almost every .22lr can comes apart.


One other method I have used to keep things as short as I could with a 16" barrel is to have the can go back over the barrel making a large blast chamber and not adding as many baffles. Here are some photos of my homemade 458 SOCOM can. It makes less noise than either of my .223 cans (AAC M4 1000 and M4 2000). Neither idea is very tube mag friendly though.

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I think there are two options to consider suppressor wise, presuming you want to buy a factory made one. Either small and light, or huge and quiet. A .45 subgun can would cover the large and quiet aspect, and there are far too many options to name here. If you're looking for something handier, you can go the expensive route: AAC TiRANT .45 or SilencerCo Osprey (would look bad on this project, I think). Both of those are of moderate length and weight and offer excellent suppression. However, you may want to look at the Thompson Machine QMF. It is small, it has pretty good performance, and is about half the price of the other two.
 
Acera, how could it run afoul of the law?

The AWA slide action pistol is a factory made slide action handgun that has passed muster with the ATF's Firearms Technical Branch.

So is the DPMS Pump action pistol:

http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/firearm.aspx?id=45

The forearm on (these handguns) is no more a vertical foregrip than those I previously mentioned.

ATF would be hard pressed (in my mind) to differentiate between two.

And, if someone were to register either as an SBR and add a stock, the concern about the VFG goes away.
 
Wouldn't a pump .410 shotgun with a slug barrel make a cheaper starting point? You could probably find a beater in a pawn shop somewhere.
 
The forearm on (these handguns) is no more a vertical foregrip than those I previously mentioned.
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I have never seen where they stated a difference in style. This pistol has a designed grip in front of the regular grip.

Just would not risk it. As many have said, the ATF has changed it's mind on things like this in the past. Is it worth it??


It probably does not matter what aftermarket parts are called, if the manufacturer of those AR's said it was a grip and not a heat shield or something like that, it might matter then.


May just have to write a letter to see what they say. I will let you guys know the results.
 
Acera, why waste your ink??

ATF has already ruled on this.

These come with an ATF letter stating that they are not NFA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZrFQ9XhL4E

It appears that the concern from ATF is "Vertical" foregrips.

From the ATF website:

Q: Is it legal to attach a vertical fore grip to a handgun?
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29).

Under an implementing regulation of the National Firearms Act (NFA), 27 C.F.R. § 479.11, “pistol” is defined as:

… a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).
The NFA further defines the term “any other weapon” (AOW) in 26 U.S.C. § 5845(e) as:

… any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.
ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand. Therefore, if individuals install a vertical fore grip on a handgun, they are “making” a firearm requiring registration with ATF’s NFA Branch. Making an unregistered “AOW” is punishable by a fine and 10 years’ imprisonment. Additionally, possession of an unregistered “AOW” is also punishable by fine and 10 years’ imprisonment.

To lawfully add a vertical fore grip to a handgun, a person must make an appropriate application on ATF Form 1 (5320.1), “Application to Make and Register a Firearm.” The applicant must submit the completed form, along with a fingerprint card bearing the applicant’s fingerprints; a photograph; and $200.00. The application will be reviewed by the NFA Branch. If the applicant is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under Federal, State, or local law, and possession of an “AOW” is not prohibited in the applicant’s State of residence, the form will be approved. Only then may the person add a vertical fore grip to the designated handgun.

A person may also send the handgun to a person licensed to manufacture NFA weapons. The manufacturer will install the fore grip on the firearm and register the firearm on an ATF Form 2 (5320.2). The manufacturer can then transfer the firearm back to the individual on an ATF Form 4 (5320.4), which results in a $5.00 transfer tax. If the manufacturer is out of State, the NFA Branch will need a clarification letter submitted with the ATF Form 4 so that the NFA Branch Examiner will know the circumstances of the transfer. Questions can be directed to the NFA Branch or the Firearms Technology Branch.
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http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html
 
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Great reference, just reinforces my point.


ATF has long held that by installing a vertical fore grip on a handgun, the handgun is no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand.
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I don't think that this slide action gun was designed to be held and fired with one hand. If it were is a rifle configuration, one would hold it with both hands, one hand operating the action through the use of the front grip. Just because it does not now rest against the shoulder, and have a long barrel does not change the way the "pistol" operates. By design you must use two hands to operate it.


“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)
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By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see.
 
Acera, if the ATF has already cleared it (this having been proven several times on this thread), why are you wasting your time with this? Do you want the ATF to reverse their decision? They already cleared it through a letter to the manufacturer. You just seem to be pretty set on proving yourself right (you aren't), and don't care what happens to that business or to the shooting community because of it.
 
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Acera wrote:

Quote:
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)


By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see
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The word "appears" is a neat little word and as we all know it's subjective in it's meaning.

Although it may "appear" to you that the AWA and DPMS products are not designed to be fired with one hand, to those people duly charged with determing such things, it does.

ATF and DPMS/AWA "appear" to have discussed this and feel differently.

All that being said, please do let us know what ATF says when you try and convince them it should be a Short Barrled Rifle.

In meantime I have gotta find one to SBR (hopefully for less than 1300 bucks).
 
Dude. Ignore the haters! This looks like one hell of a fun gun. I guarantee it would be the only one ever done :D Do it!
 
Dude. Ignore the haters! This looks like one hell of a fun gun. I guarantee it would be the only one ever done Do it!
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I agree! This looks to be an interesting and unique project!
 
“Handgun” is defined under Federal law to mean, in part, “a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand…” Gun Control Act of 1968, 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)
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By reading your above quote. I appears to violate that. Oh well, we will see.
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This gun sounds like it is able to be fired with one hand. Reloading is a different matter. If this was the case, wouldn't the DPMS panther be illegal? It can be fired with one hand.
 
Tad awesome idea i love thos epost apoclyptic end of the world wierdo hero guns from zombie movies

so let me get this straight i cant use two hands to operate a pistol?

well there goes my weaver stance and practicly all my trainging with the push pull method not to mention my accuracy

btw quit griping about grippings we got your point about it being a grip now dummy up like the rest of us and say its a "handgaurd" before one lame duck ruins the lot
 
Acera, you better throw away most of the pistols you own that were made after the 90's or so. A lot of newer guns have serrations on the front of the trigger guard, which are completely unusable if you're holding the gun with only one hand...
 
As far as the suppressor goes, my reccomendation is the SilencerCo Osprey. Right now it is the quietest 45 caliber suprresssor on the market. Another feature is that it is an offset design with most of the chambers below the bore. This allows it to sit lower than any other suprressor and allows you to use the factory sights.

I already have a 45 suppressor and am seriously looking at getting one of these. I got to hear one a few days ago. It was quieter than the 9mm suprressors that some of the other guys were shooting.

http://www.silencerco.com/Silencerco/#/osprey/
 
NFA.ht55.jpg


I'd have never thought anyone had already done it, but...SBR - Rossi Model 92 .44mag
 
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needs some rail attachments on the frame for some night vision and some serious tactil 1/8 moa adjustable scopes with multiple powers for shooting thos far places like 100 yards or less..............lol oh well at least you can look at the animal as if it was in mag glass lol
 
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