My new pet peeve is range at which game is shot.

[jimbo]

Hemicuda,

In the spirit if my pet peeve, that people don't report the range at which they've made their shots on game animals, could you ask your father the ranges at which he got his Elk and what brand and weight bullets he used in his .260 Rem. M7?

Thank you sincerely,

Jimbo

 

[sturmruger]

My thoughts

At the rate we are going one of the requirements for talking about our kills is going to be a topographical map with all of the ranges and wind direction noted.

I will be the first to admit that I use a gun that is borderline too small. the last 8 years I have been using a Mini 14 to shoot whitetails in Northern WI. I have been using Black Hillls 72 gr HP ammo. The longest shot I took was probably around 80 yards. The closest was right around 35 yards. Up until 2 years ago I had the utmost confidence in my little .223. I had a nice 10 pointer jump up and run by me broadside at 80 yards. In WI we are limited to a 5 round mag plus one in the chamber. Piecing it all back together I hit the deer with 4 out of my 6 shots. One of the shots completely destroyed his heart. There was no visible reaction from the deer; right about the time I ran out of ammo I was sure that I had missed him 6 times!!! Luckily we were in a very large field so I could keep an eye on him. He ran 200 yards through the field and laid down and died.

I still have a lot of confidence in my little .223, but I am planning to switch to a rifle that will give me a little more feedback while shooting at game. The first deer that I shot was with a .44 mag it fell right over when I shot it. I kind of liked that, I am now the proud owner of a new Ruger 96/44. I know deer won't typically fall over when shot, but I decided I probably have a better chance with the .44 compared to the .223. I am still planning on using the .223 to hunt deer, but now I have another option.

I personally think all of the talk about calibers is kind of a waste of time. Anything bigger then a .223 will effectively kill whitetail deer. Hell my great grandpa's 30-30 has killed more deer then I ever will in a life time. Don't worry so much about caliber, worry about range and shot placement those are the most important factors.

Here in WI is legal to shoot deer with a .22 cal bullet as long as it is a soft point and the bullet weighs more then 55gr.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ranges

Besides the brags that I hear too often of how far the animal was shot,
I've noticed a tendency of the shooter ot grossly overestimate the range.
Whether this is due to lack of skill in judging range or of holdover and
lack of knowledge of the trajectory of the caliber in question, or lust plain lying, I can only judge on an individual basis. If he's a notorious
bullshooter...I call it BS. Maybe it's due to adrenalin...who knows...
but after such a claim, I otetn point to a distant object and ask hime to
range it. The answer is almost always much longer than the rangefinder
proves for an average of three readings.

Since the majority of shots at deer and black bear in this neck of the woods are taken between 30 and 75 yards, except for the ones who
hunt over tobacco and strawberry fields...There's rarely a problem.
The long range hunters usually take their shots at 250-300 yards with
carefully zeroed rifles.

For still hunting, my practice is, and always has been:

"Git close as ya kin, laddie...then git 10 paces closer"


Cheers!

Tuner

 

[jimbo]

Hi sturmruger,

I'm not trying to turn hunting threads into a PhD dissertation. Just so often I've read threads about some great cartridge taken dozens of deer with absolutely no regard to whether those deer were taken at distance or up close and personal. I think for many people, all their shots are at 50-100 yards and quite frankly ANY cartridge they chose would be acceptable.

I'm just asking for a teeny bit of help. When folks talk about all the game they've taken with their x caliber hunting rifle, could you give us some idea if you've been pouding them up close or from a distance. That's all. I'm just asking for a favor.

Thanks all for all your patience,

Jimbo

 

[1911Tuner]

Ballistics

Howdy Jimbo,

The longest shot that I've taken in this area was about 140 paces
across a cornfield. Most of the others have been under 75.
My rifle is a Ruger 77 UltraLight with a 20-inch barrel (usually) or
a Ruger 77 RSI International carbine with an 18.5 inch barrel,
both in .308 Winchester.

Ammo is a general purpose handload consisting of the Nosler
150-grain Ballistic Tip, 46 grains of IMR 4895, Winchester
large standard rifle primers, in commercial Winchester once-fired brass.
Readings were taken at 30 feet from the muzzle at about 60 degrees F
and at very close to sea level on a crisp October morning.

Three separate chronographs insist that the initial velocity is 2740 fps
in the UltraLight's 20-inch barrel, and a tick over 2700 in the shorter rifle.
Accuracy is good....average of 1.25 to 1.5 inches for three 5-shot groups
for each rifle. Nothing to get fired up about, but perfectly adequate for
deer-sized game out to about 250 or 300 yards if shot carefully.

Performance on the animal is excellent, with none that have been hit
solidly in the heart/lung area taking more that two leaps before crashing, and most drop at the shot like they'd been hit by a truck.

The bullets normally expanded early on and fragmented about 3/4ths
of the way through the chest cavity, with core and jacket separating
shortly afterward, and the core has always been found under the skin
on the opposite side without exiting with the jacket an inch or so behind it.
Large permanent wound cavity with bruising and destroyed tissue that
radiated for 3-4 inches beyond the permanent channel, with some bruised
or bloodshot edible meat in the shoulder area on occasion. The heart and both lungs are typically destroyed.


Performance on two black bear taken at roughly 50 yards has been similar,
with less penetration noted. Heavy bone was not struck on either animal,
with both shots being confined to the chest cavity...One in a frontal shot
and one on an angling broadside shot. Both animals died within 10 feet
of where they were shot. Average weight for both was around 270 pounds
and penetration was adequate, but if I use the rifles for bear again, I'd
use the 165 grain Ballistic Tip with 44.5 grains of IMR 4064 for a muzzle
velocity of about 2500 fps. The 150 grain bullets fragmented heavily
and penetrated about halfway through...barely adequate for an animal
that can be dangerous when wounded. Good shot placement is the only thing that anchored them, and a heavier bullet is needed for best performance on black bear of this size range. I wouldn't recommend
the caliber or the Ballistic Tip of any weight on the larger brown bears.

Hope this helps.

Tuner

 

[Hemicuda]

Dad and the M7 Remington -

the first one was killed with a plain old Remington Core-Lokt bullet in the 115 Gr. weight (the only loading for the .260 when he bought it...)

and that Elk was taken at just a tad over 150 yards...


the next 3 were taken with Speer Nitrex rounds utilizing Speer bullets in the 145 Gr. variety...

of these next 3 elk, they ranged from almost point-blank (literally less than 20 feet) all the way out to 200 or so yards (the one I witnessed was at a measured 190 yards)



Edited to correct premium cartridge brand and add bullet weights, after talking to dad...

 

[Matt G]

The longest shot I ever made on a deer was a hair over 300 yards with a .257 Rbts and a 100g Sierra spitzer. I would almost call it a stunt, but I had a backpack rest, shot from prone, and knew the drop of that load very well. That said, I failed to take the fact it was walkiing into a wind into account, and the bullet landed a tad far back. The liver hemmorage and diaphragm destruction made it pile up in about 100 yards, but there for awhile, I thought I'd lost that deer.

Shortest shot I ever made on a deer, I missed. True story. I was desperate to handgun me a deer, and I took an ill-advised one-handed, weak-handed pistol shot while standing on my knees in an oakmont and shooting behind me. Distance was about 15 yards, and I missed 4 times before picking up my rifle and shooting the now-fleeing doe in the head at about 60 yards. Oof. Some memories hurt!



I think there's more to the shot than just distance. For example: did all these deer that dropped dead in their tracks take shots to the vitals, or did they get a CNS hit, with which a .30 Carbine FMJ would be sufficient? I tend to keep my rifles zero'd for about 2.5" high at 100 yards. If I hold only slightly high for a shoulder (or behind the shoulder) shot at 80 to 120 yards, it's extremely likely that the bullet will tag some part of the bony process that comprises the spine in a deer. This results in spectacular results, wherein the deer drops in its own tracks, but I can't really claim much about the bullet's downrange effects other than that it managed to penetrate enough whitetail to reach the spinal process.

 

[jimbo]

1911Tuner,

Fantastic info. Thanks!


Hemicuda,

I would NEVER expect a 115 gr. round to take an Elk at 150, even with a perfect shot! You're basically shooting a .243 load at that point. That's pretty fascinating stuff and kudos to your Dad. I'm sure someone will come on and say "don't try this at home" but it really drives home the point that for hundreds of years of our history folks were taking Elk and doing so with rounds less than 300 Win mag in power. Buy a 260 150 grain...


MattG,

Your words are true and indespensable. Great comments. If I could just get everyone used to including the range they take game in their hunting stories, I'll be dang ecstatic for now! And you all are helping quite a bit right now, so thanks.