My new pet peeve is range at which game is shot.

[jimbo]

Foremost among our selections for a particular hunting rifle is caliber. Caliber debates provoke many contentious, yet worthwhile, discussions. After reading hundreds of threads on dozens of websites I have developed a pet peeve that is really beginning to stick in my craw, which is...

Few hunters ever note the ranges at which they hunt and take game animals, or any other pertinent details I need.

A typical post might sing high praises for the .243 Winchester as a suitable whitetail round. The hunter might claim taking scores of deer with his .243 over the years, and therefore it is a great whitetail round. A rebuttal is all but certain as another hunter will proclaim that shot placement is critical and he has seen dozens of deer run off after being shot with .243's, never to be seen again.

I am pleading with you all and anyone reading "The High Road" from other websites to please include more pertinent details.

Maybe the hunter who killed dozens of deer with .243's was shooting small Texas whitetails at ranges under 100-yards with 100 grain premium bullets fired from a gun with a 26-inch barrel. And just maybe the hunter who lost several deer was shooting 300-lb trophies at ranges above 300-yards with 80 grain econo-bullets from a 20-inch-barreled carbine.

Classic in this vein is the oft-repeated factoid that thousands of Scandanavian Moose (Elk I guess) are killled with the 6.5x55 SE cartridge. That is all fine and good but are they making 400 yard shots across canyons or are they able to get withing 50-yards of their game. I'm going to go out on a limb here and speculate that might just make a wee bit of difference in the effectiveness of any game cartridge. (Sarcasm is so unflattering!)

Well, thanks for letting me express myself. I'm just a frustrated because I am still mulling a Kimber .260 and any help is appreciated. And I've been pouring over caliber recommendations from hunters on numerous websites and it is just very typical for hunters to say what cartridge they like and how many deer they killed or lost and NEVER include any other pertinent details, such as the range they killled or failed to kill at.

Thanks for letting me spew. I'll take my medication now.

 

[JohnKSa]

The .260 and the 6.5x55 are oddities in that their game performance is surprisingly out of proportion to their paper performance.

I have a friend who owns a gun shop. He's been hunting for years, is a great shot and loves magnum rifles. When his son started hunting, the kid didn't like recoil, so he got him a .260.

I was in there the other day and he was complaining. He said: "I hit 'em perfect with my (whatever) magnum and they go running off. I have to go hunt them down. My kid shoots them with that .260 and they drop where they stand--I just don't get it."

 

[Greybeard]

Don't feel lonesome on the "they-often-don't-have=a-clue-about-range" peeves.

On hunter education course "skills trail" for classes we do heavily in the fall, that is a primary topic on Station #1. After the first two questions regarding safety and legality, then we get to "Is it an ethical shot? With your gun? At that range? " Then, "OK, what IS the range? How many yards from where you are standing?"

One of the distances is a measured 52 yards. The other is a measured 247 yards. It's amazing how lousy some folks are at estimating distance - or knowing what their bullet is going to do as and when it gets there.

But, Station #1 typically gets people to thinking ... and talking .... - then hopefully researching and testinng and practicing more later. ' Guess maybe that's why it's called "Hunter Education".

 

[macavada]

Not all Texas deer are pigmies.

But seriously, if you want a .260, get the .260. Even the supposed "all around calibers" aren't all around calibers. If you get the .260, you get a caliber with its own set of limitations and usage parameters, with the understanding of what those limitations are. Even with that in mind, sometimes bullets do funny things when they hit an animal, and there is no way to account for such things.

As a general rule, I don't think many hunters are taking 300 yard shots with a .243. Most deer are taken much closer.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[Smoke]

Guilty as charged. As I read your post I realized I'm guilty of the very things you mentioned.

For past reference. Deer In Bosque county are rarely above 125# Shots are rarely taken above 200yards with 90% inside of 100.

Bullet and barrel information available on a case by case basis.

Smoke

 

[dakotasin]

the 260 will kill deer fine... anything between 25-caliber and 308 caliber will work on any north american deer, everytime, given a competent hunter.

smaller than 257 will work, too, but sometimes you might have to pass a shot or whatever... bigger than 308 will work, too, it just isn't necessary.

 

[buzz meeks]

I'll second what dakotasin said. The 260 Remington will work just fine on any deer. In fact, I think it will work at much longer ranges than anyone would consider ethical. I have used its ballistic twin, the 6.5x55 Swede on one whitetail buck and one buck antelope. My wife used it on one whitetail buck. All three critters expired immediately. All three kills were between one and two hundred yards but each exit wound convinced me that the modest little Swede had plenty of penetrating power left.

I will go one further. Based on what I have seen in the field and based on research here and in various print media, I will be taking a 6.5x55 elk hunting this year. I am confident that a proper bullet in the right place will do the job.

While calibers of this class are on the razor's edge of effectiveness for game like elk and moose, I believe they are nonetheless effective. And they carry some very tangible benefits like low recoil. That means I will be more likely to spend my summer shooting at gophers with my big game rifle. Magnum power cannot trump what a practiced and confident shooter can do with a "good enough" rifle.

I'll agree that we should all be more clear about what sort of ranges and terrain we expect to hunt. But even that has less to do with cartridge selection than it does bullet selection. A 7mm Remington Magnum is just as suitable for Montana's forested northwest corner as it is to the state's eastern plains. But it is a mistake to expect a 175 grain round nose to work well on the plains and it is folly to take a polymer-tipped, high-strung boattail to a place where you might need to whack a bull elk in the shoulder at fifty yards.

Best of luck to you, whatever your decision.

 

[jimbo]

Thank you all for your reponses and faith in the .260 Remington. The more I read of it, the more I think it can do anything a .308 can do and do it with less recoil.

Smoke, you made my day by staying on topic about my new pet peeve. If folks can simply add the ranges they take game at in their responses, well I'll be thrilled and it will help me so much in my understanding.

Buzz, thanks for the excellent response and adding bullet design to the equation. I am still in my infancy with respect to understanding the bullet types appropriate for various game and ranges and it is just another parameter I need to educate myself on. I find it fascinating you plan to hunt Elk with a .260. I can't wait for the de-briefing. I keep feeling I need a .30-06 or better for Elk and the recoil is stiff out of my light Remington Mountain Rifle. We might go to Idaho for Elk next year and if I could hump and shoot a .260 Kimber instead of the .30-06 Mountain Rifle, well that would be just dandy. So please let me know how the .260 performs on Elk. Oh -- and don't forget to let me know what range you get him at.

 

[jimbo]

Greybeard,

I could definitely stand to use a Hunter's Education course. I think I get overconfident just firing at paper targets at exactly 100 yards consistently. I guess I'm ready for any game I just happen to find at exactly 100 yards! But seriously, I probably do need to scatter some items around in the woods, guess the distances and then pace them off to start developing a feel for distances in the woods. The real problem comes because not all game are the same size, so how the heck can you tell a bid deer way off from a small one up close. I guess that's why flat-shooting cartridges are in such high demand.

 

[jimbo]

Buzz,

Since you were talking bullet selection, what bullets did you use for your 6.5-55 SE on your hunts and why did you choose them?

Thanks,

Jimbo

 

[cracked butt]

Believe me, the .243 is plenty effective for whitetail.

I'm hesitant to say it, as I did it when I was young, and very inexperienced, but I shot a nice 8 point buck at a shade over 400 yards with a .243. I would never doit again knowing what I know now about wind deflection and ballistics, but when I was 13, I couldn't tell the difference between 200 and 400 yards. I knew he was a ways out there- I had a scope with a european post style reticle, so I put the cross hair on the buck's back and squeazed the triger- double lunged him, though it seemed to take forever for my bullet to hit. The 100 gr nosler partition handload that my father had made did a huge amount of damage and the deer only took about 10 steps before expiring.


I don't want to use this as reasoning for taking longer shots, but quite the contrary, not to take long shots. A 10 mph gust of wind, the deer taking a step, or me not having the dumb luck of holding over just right could have easily resulted in a wounded/lost deer.


The disturbing trend I see is is more ultramagnum cartridges that tout flatter trajectories along with rangefinding scopes with built in holdovers. Some people are no doubt skilled enough to use these setups, but if a person is not skilled enough to hit a game animal in the vitals with a .308/30-06 class cartridge, no amount of extra money spend on magnums and high end optics is going to make up for it.


I'm one of those people who have shot alot of animals with a .243- I never lost one, never had to track one very far, but I did use handloaded ammunition with premium bullets- no cheapo corelokts or silvertips for me. The smallest deer and the one that I came closest to losing, was shot with a 30-06 using handloaded ammunition. (see pictures thread in roundtable forum) The deer was facing downhill and took a step just as I pulled the trigger- he was only 60-75 yards away, my bullet struck high behind the rib cage, I spent 4 hrs tracking and searching before I found him. Not saying that the .243 is a beter cartridge than the 30-06, but the bullet expansion on the 30-06 wasn't very impressive (using hornady interlock bullet) as compared to what I've seen for internal damage and exit wounds from a .243. AS with anything, it comes down to shot placement.

 

[buzz meeks]

Jimbo- you asked about my bullet selection? The first whitetail, my wife's, fell to a 140 grain Nosler Partition. I did not reload at the time and simply used the most accurate factory fodder I could find. In this case that was the now-discontinued Federal Premium in 6.5x55.

A year later, I took a buck antelope with a Speer 140 grain spitzer over a moderate charge of RL-22. A year after that I took a whitetail buck with the same bullet over H4831SC.

Why the Speer? I was brand new to reloading at the time and had just purchased the RCBS Rockchucker kit. The only manual I had at the time was the Speer which came with the kit. Speer manual, Speer bullets.

All three shots were classic broadsides and all three shots went into the ribs just behind the shoulder. In other words, it was hardly a demanding task for the Speer. Nonetheless, I would have to say it did well enough. There was a pencil diameter entrance in each case and a tennis ball sized exit. No bullet fragments, no signs of premature expansion.

I would not hesitate to use any of the non-premiums on game up to the size of large mulies or maybe cow elk. The 6.5s just don't move out fast enough to stress the bullet design. Also, most of the .264 bullets out there are optimized for the moderate Swede and Mannlicher-Schonauer velocities.

Having said all that, because I am going after elk with a 6.5x55 this year, I will be working with the 140 Nosler Partition in the warmest handload that stays accurate. I may also try out some of the 160 grainers but again that is because of the elk factor. They're nifty but unnecessary for deer.

 

[Greybeard]

jimbo -

A cut and paste below from Texas Parks and Wildlife page.
CALIFORNIA
First-time license buyers must complete hunter education safety course.
Tel: 916/653-9727

Altho you may well learn as much or more by hanging out at THR.

Several ways of judgeing size/distance. Old-timers use relationship to size of front sight on 30/30. Modern electronic widgets of course nail down specific yardage at ranges typically far beyond most operators' ability with even flat-shooting cartridges.

Paper plates - picnic plates are one of my favorite targets. Both for CHL people and big game hunters. The 8" to 9" diameter is close to the same size as "vital area" on deer (or 2-legged varmints). One of my scopes happens to have a recticle with a circle that can be set to exactly cover a 9" plate at 100 yards. (Which also correlates to about 4" to 5" vital area on Mr. Coyote at 200 yards.)

Yep, it's great to get sighted in from the bench on a bull's eye target from 100 or 200 yards. But then the better measure of ability comes when the sandbags are left at home and lots of rounds are directed at paper plates at various distances - from types of shooting positions (standing, kneeling, etc.) that simulate actual and realistic conditions in the field.

My suggestion is being able to put at least 3 out of 3 on a pie plate before feeling "ethically confident" at a given distance. Another instructor friend suggests 10 out of 10 - to help offset the "adreneline factor". Bottom line when folks try it, is that many realize they have no business taking shots much beyond 100 yards. "Shooter dispersion" at 200 or 300 yards frequently becomes far greater than "bullet drop", even if they do get that part right.

 

[jimbo]

CB & Greybeard,

Thanks for the great replies.

Buzz -- help me learn. Why would you pick a 140 gr. Nosler Partition for Elk over say a Barnes X, Scirocco or Swift A-frame for example? How do you select the best bullet for the job? I know you want deep penetration with full weight retention, but how do you learn what bullets to use on what game at what velocity?

Thanks,

Jimbo

 

[buzz meeks]

Uhhh... that's sort of a big topic, jimbo. Kind of like trying to find out what's the best self-defense round out there. It's like anything I suppose. You do all the research you can, listen to the people who actually go out and use this stuff year in and year out and then go make some mistakes on your own. And then you might have some idea.

I highly recommend you read anything by Ross Seyfried, Finn Aagard, Jack O'Connor and P.O. Ackley. There are others but these gentlemen were/are hunters and experimenters of the first order and all of them can help guide you.

Why did I pick the Nosler over the X, the A-frame and others? One was cost. Two was tons of established loading data. Three, my rifle liked it. Fourth, it is the standard by which others are judged. Number four is important. Some premium bullets have a much longer history than others. There is a reason for that.

You mentioned deep penetration and that is huge. All the energy in the world is useless if you don't hit something vital to the animal. No numbers can predict perfectly how well a bullet will penetrate a living creature. But a figure called sectional density is a good clue. Typically, heavy-for-caliber bullets will have a high sectional density and they SHOULD penetrate deeply.

I always choose my bullets based on SD. You can find this info in reloading manuals among other places. For example, the 140 grain 6.5 bullets have SDs in the .287 range. By comparison, it takes a .30 caliber bullet of 190 grains to have equal SD. So if you drive a 6.5/140 and a .30/190 at the same velocity, say 2700 fps, they should penetrate the same. Of course all this theory can just evaporate in the field so don't take what I say as gospel.

You also mentioned full weight retention. That is more problematic. One hundred percent weight retention makes for good ad copy but the famous Nosler, for example, famously sheds a lot of weight. The half of the bullet that lies forward of the partition is SUPPOSED to peel away. Also, full weight retention, if it is in the form of a huge mushroom can actually limit penetration. Do you want a wide but short wound path or a long wound path with an entry and exit wound? I prefer an exit wound.

As far as finding a velocity, the manufacturers can help you out there. They will tell you the optimum window for each bullet they make. I think this is one area where the premiums really are better. They tend to expand at a lower velocity and hold together at a higher velocity than their lower cost brethren. So if, in the same day, you might have to shoot an elk in black timber at thirty yards or shoot an elk on a distant hillside at three hundred yards, and if you want to use the same bullet, you might be better off with a premium. Or not. Lots of experienced hunters swear by Hornady InterLocks and Remington CoreLocts(sp?) and other plain Jane bulets.

Like anything in the gun world, it's a balancing act. But if you pay attention to history and choose a bullet that historically has performed well, you're off to a good start. In my case, I'm okay with the 6.5x55 because for one hundred and ten years it has been getting the job done in a workmanlike fashion. And I'm using the Nosler because it too has racked up an impressive record in its fifty or so years.

 

[Leaky Waders]

I've been reading a lot of archery stuff lately...one that stood out in my mind read "One who likes to see how far they can shoot a target is an archer, one who likes to see how close they can get to the target before shooting is a bowhunter."

I think it applies to rifle/shotgun hunting too for the most part.

V/R,
LW

 

[jimbo]

Buzz,

Thanks for the fascinating information. I'm in your debt.

Now I have to get studying.

 

[Art Eatman]

jimbo, ya ain't been using the Search feature. I dunno how many times, here and in the Rifle Forum, that I've mentioned the .243 and the '06. I do know that I've yapped a lot about distances and sizes of animals. And weight of rifle vs. recoil. And suitability of various bullets at various velocities and distances.

And not just me yakkin'. A fair number of folks chimed in about their own experiences along these lines, what they've seen...

Search, boy! Search!

, Art

 

[Battlespace]

In 1984 I shot a Texas whitetail at Ft Hood at less than 5 yds. I used a 30-06 with a 165 gr. If I been a little quicker I probably could have cut the range to less than a yard. Good cover, concealment and being quiet. He was intent on a doe that had passed by about 15 minutes earlier. He had his nose to the ground and was grunting along. I was setting in the middle of a pile of old dead cedars. He took less than 1/2 a step.

OTOH, I had shot another whitetail at Ft Hood two years earlier with a .243. The range was about 180 yards and was about as far as I trusted the 100 gr to do its business.

 

[sumpnz]

I'm planning to hunt mulies here in AZ with my Swedish Mauser. I had my FFL load up Speer 120gr Hot-Core bullets over 46.5gr AA4350. We chrono'd that load at a 5-shot average of 2914 fps (temp was 100F). I'll be more than happy to tell you the results if I get a shot at a deer (well, I have to get drawn for dang tag first). I'm also planning to use the same rifle for cow elk hunting if I get drawn to that. If that happens I'll probably have the same guy work up a 130-140gr Barnes X-bullet load, or maybe one of the 150-160gr bullets that are out there. I haven't practiced enough to know my personal limits for range, but I would imagine that getting inside of 200 yards would be prudent, and certainly at this point anything over 300 yards is out of my range regardless of the bullet's capabilities.

Edit: I was going to buy a CZ 550 in 6.5x55SE but car repairs ate up that buget for the time being.

 

[lycanthrope]

Range used to be a really big deal in reference to caliber and deer. With the advent of bullets like the Barnes X you don't need much speed to get the penetration necessary for a kill with good shot placement.
Those bullets are darn near armor piercing.

That being said, I really like the holes made by Nosler Ballistic Tips. You just never know how a bullet will perform until you shoot it out of your gun. I throw 140gr BT's at 3400+fps and they go right through deer. Strangely enough, I used a 160gr Partition on this doe this year at under 50 yards and it grenaded. Link is graphic. No exit wound. You are looking at the entrance. Note: this load killed 3 elk last year.

160 Partition

With a .260 I would get a bullet you prefer (penetration versus expansion.....your choice). I would shoot it...a lot. At the farthest range I could hit a 6 inch plate, I would call that max range.

 

[Harve Curry]

In regards to the 243, in southern Arizona and New Mexico my cousins shoot mule deer and coues deer for the last 20+ years because thats what their Dad bought them. They get some nice deer at ranges from close to 300 yards.

I use to have only one rifle a Savage 99A cal 308 Win. and got pretty good with it. With a Hornady 150gr spire point I dropped a Coues buck at a measured 625 yards, downhill. I thought it was 500 yards. It looked like the steel rams at the metalic sillouette shoot.

Now I guide hunters and find a disturbing number really don't like to shoot. Their big rifle, recoils to much and it isn't pleasant. Many feel if they can get a 12" group on paper at 100 yards from a bench they are ready, "just get me to the elk and I'll do the rest" they say.

I always thought shooting and likeing it was a prerequisite to going hunting. Putting your shooting skills to the test with hunting.

Getting off topic. Range is going to be limited to your ability, how much you practice and how good you get at it. At first as a new hunter you will enjoy making that long shot. After that I think you'll find getting in close and really hunting, taking your shoes off to walk silent, using a dust bottle to keep the wind in your favor, Setting on a high ground and looking. Picking one out and going after that ONE. When you see a deer or elk at a mile and a half away and go after him and get wihtin 50 yards or less with a muzzleloader or bow, man thats hunting. You took your boots off at the last 300 yards or so. Played the wind and then the hunter your guiding says "I think I'll let him go, that was fun"

Never take a shot at game from a standing position unless it's
100 yards or less. Always use a rest. The animal deserve that.

 

[one-shot-one]

ranges

1st deer texas buck 110 lbs @ 53 yards with a 270 winchester 22 in bbl. 130 gr. federal thur the ribs broad side 1" behind the shoulder. DRT not one step.

2nd deer texas buck 130 lbs @ 155 yards w/30.06 22" bbl mod. 70 light weight 150 gr. fed. thur the ribs 1/4" in frount of the diapram deer ran 800+ yards, bad hit with a gun i was not familar with.

later two doe shot with same gun above @ 75/65 yards one moved 10' the other turn around and droped.

spiked buck 85 lbs 35 yards with a PSE compound bow koplan twister broad heads an easton alum. arrow ran 25 yrds.

last year doe at 92 yards winchester 300wsm 180 gr. win. 22"bbl. head on shot hit left shoulder busted shoulder and 3 ribs angled back to thur diaphram and into stomach lodged in left rear rump. ran 45 yards.

hope this tells you more than it does me.

buy the gun/cal. you want, practice , practice, practice, use good ammo with bullets suitable for the game your after, and everything will work out.
a good hit with the 260 will bring down any animal better than a miss with a 300 win. mag.

 

[mohican]

Make sure it works for you

I have done a lot of handgun .357 & .44 mag revolvers) hunting of whitetail deer in the past, and what works best for me seems like a step backward to some. I started hunting with JHPs, and now shoot cast (wheelweight) round flat nose (LBT style) bullets. Max .357 range? 50 yards would be an awfully long shot. 44mag? Maybe 75 yards off hand. 100 yards with a rest. Now with my .454 Super Redhawk? Still probably 75 yards off hand. I would probably stretch that a good bit past 100 if I could find a rest. I shoot enough to know how far out I can hit with what.

Whether it's rifles(not for deer in Ohio), shotguns, muzzleloaders, handguns, bows, atl-atls, practice is the key.

Do you really want to find the outer limits of your deer shooter? then try varmint hunting with it

 

[Hemicuda]

My own father has had EXCELLENT luck (skill?) with a Remington Mod. 7 carbine in .260 on colorado elk...

3 or 4 taken in as many years, and ALL dropped where shot... (and I mean DROPPED!)

PERSONALLY, I DO hunt whitetails with a .243, but it is a custom Mauser, with a 26" semi-bull barrel, and I am a pretty good shot...

on the other hand, I don't elk hunt with less than a 30-06, and prefer my 300 H&H magnum...

Dad is just that good, that the li'l ol' .260 is more than enough...