My Pet Peeve!

[Hook686]

Then there was Kent State. I was in an AF Riot Control Unit at the AFB I was stationed at. It seems those in the barracks were the ones in that particular unit. After Kent State, the Sgt. took the loaded magazines from everyone, except him. We advanced with only the bayonet against all those hippies ... scary.

 

[TEDDY]

loaded

old grump:your not that old.how about the 1919A1actually the MN aircraft gun.I live them for 3 yrs.
in Vienam an aair field had allguns locked up except the perimiter guards.they saved the base till they could get the guns unlocked.same in Korea.
before WW2 high schools had rifle clubs and taught safty and marksmanship.I think that saved alot of lives in WW2.now the future soldiers are clueless on guns and taght that guns are bad.may be volonters are a good thing as a draft would have a bunch of scared to death antigunners. :banghead:

 

[NukemJim]

John Farnam is IMHO the grand old man of firearms training in the USA today. He does a lot of training with military units around the country, and believes in training on hot ranges.

John Farnam not only believes in "Hot" ranges he also believes in "Hot" classrooms.

I was taking a class from him and was told I would have to leave unless and untill I was carrying a loaded firearm in the classroom After he talked a few minutes we went over our carbines he had us load them and then carry them for the rest of the day.

Putting it mildy I was surprised. He caused me to do a lot of thinking that night and the next day. He was correct.

As far as the military not wanting people to have live ammo due to the possibility of an accident I must ask an obnoxius question.

Is the purpose of the military to train as safely as possible or is it to train to win conflicts?

I can understand having boots carry weapons loaded with blanks (with some sort of system so that if a blank is fired it is definetly noticed and trackable) I have read (do not know) that the army is starting something like this.

NukemJim
Kevlar/Shields ON/

 

[mljdeckard]

I was in an academic course with a SEAL recently. I started a conversation with him about this subject. I told him I thought the army engenders an air of complacency, in that they PREACH the four rules, but then they create a climate where moving quickly and getting weapons issued, cleaned, and turned in is MORE important than safety. He was surprised, since in the Navy, when guys go through the SEAL training program, they are given a mentality that everything is always combat, and to act as such. I explained to him that the actual implementation in the Army never works out that way. When I remind people they are being unsafe, (Particularly people who outrank me) I get yelled at. (I do it anyway.) One day I reminded am NCO to please watch his muzzle, and not flag me as he went up and down the stairs with it slung. He yelled at me that he was too busy to make sure MY head wasn't in front of HIS muzzle. Fortunately for me, the 1SG was standing behind him and he didn't know it.

I have suggested (and had implemented by my unit) a safety refresher in conjuction with the safety briefing whenever weapons are drawn for any reason. Just a reminder that we have all been handling weapons for years. We all know what we are doing. Most of us are NCOs. Most of us have deployed. This doesn't change anyone's obligation to make safety THEIR problem. Some of the reminders and suggestions involved were:

If you are in an awkward position of movement, with your weapon slung, and it is flagging someone, they are ok to grip the muzzle and move it around them. You do not reprimand them for touching your weapon, you thank them for enhancing safety when they were unable to.

Safety transcends rank. If you get reminded by someone who outranks you, suck it up, and be a good enough soldier to accept it. Don't get mad.

When we are doing battle drills, which involve us pointing weapons at each other, issue blank-firing adapters. Ideally we should all have plenty of rubber duckies so that we don't have to point live weapons at each other, but we don't. At least the BFA IDs the rifle as inert.

The problem with the army is that you handle, clean, move, and train with weapons often, but the only time they are really loaded is when they approach the firing line, they are handed their magazines to zero/qualify, their bolt locks open, and then baby-sitting NCOs rod their bore to ensure they are clear. It's SOMEONE ELSE'S problem, they don't make it the soldier's problem. This means that the rest of the time they are carrying a weapon, they don't make safety personal.

 

[cavman]

Weren't the boys on the rail of the USS Cole without loaded weapons when the explosive-laden boat approached?

May be foggy memory from 5 years ago, but I thought I read that in a passing line of newsprint somewhere.

If true, has the seriousness of their jobs been considered since then by the Brass? Are Navy boats on combat patrol armed against menace?

 

[Pilgrim]

One has to keep in mind, every year about 40% of a unit's personnel are rotated out or released from active duty. It is foolish to assume the replacements are as competent and trained as the folks who just left.

A unit's training officer has to train to the lowest common denominator, hence some of the training rules seem childish.

Once a year I have to go renew my Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act CCW permit. Now one would think that since all the people at the range are skilled peace officers I wouldn't have to worry about getting shot. Wrong.

Many of the retired officers I shoot with only shoot once a year. The 'new' guys haven't shot their weapons in several years. They are absolutely scary.

One gent on my most recent shoot showed up to qualify with semiautomatic pistol. He had never shot it before in his life. He didn't understand what a slide stop did. He ejected live rounds out because he didn't understand he still had ammo in his weapon. His rounds on target were all over the place.

Pilgrim

 

[NukemJim]

Pilgrim, My understanding is that there are certain skills taught in basic that everyone must show competency in prior to graduating(such as saluting). If "Living with guns" to steal a phrase from Mr Farnam, is taught in basic and made a skill that must have competency demonstrated prior to graduating basic, then would that eliminate that problem that you refer.

As far as qualifying around LEOs, yes that can be interesting. Some of the best shooters I've seen have been LEOs. Some of the WORST shooters I've seen have been LEOs. So, no I would not think that I do not have to worry about being shot at the range. I bought a vest specificly for the range.

Regardless, I'm not convinced that the training/competency (or lack thereof) of retired (or current) LEOs is realy relevant as regard the training/competency of the military. I believe that the military require their members to use grenades/machine guns/grenade launchers/Anti-Tank missles etc..... The skill set of LEOs is from my understanding not the skill set of the military.

Now should LEOs be competent with firearms and safety is another subject entirely.

NukemJim

 

[Old Guy]

Jim,

The HR218 was a terrific win for retired Cops, but!!!! The whole process is, as always dependent on the majority, and some slip through the cracks.

Lee Lapkin has said it is beyond our scope to go into military matters, and I do agree, to an extent, we all know people in the Army, would it not be nice to pass an idea on that might save their lives one day, especially a Son or Daughter?

Let me take this thought a little further, no knives, we might cut ourselves, do you carry one with no blade?

Let us just say loaded whilst in theater? Always with you? The M4, does it have a loaded indicator? No, fit one. Something to run your finger over, even though you loaded it, it is always loaded, it is always with you, slung or in hand.
How does that sound, still too radical?

 

[Tirod]

Unfortunatly, we are a polite society, and no longer an armed society. Many of the service rules are created by non-combat commanders more concerned about safety than threat conditions. They consider a ND with injury a career stopper. It's corporation think.

IIRC, in Basic, weapons are now issued and the troops live with them 24/7, a huge improvement from 20 years ago. No live ammo, but these kids know more about Nintendos than simple lethal weapons. You can't - I say again - can't have The Honorable Congressman constantly bombarded by grieving parents of injured or dead soldiers who died in training. It's not acceptable in any part of the political or social framework of today's society.

I started out as Infantry and finished MP, there is a great deal of difference in the mental attitudes of the soldiers serving these branches. Infantry soldiers don't calculate risk well - MP's know the risk and calculate the advantage. Obviously, one carries live ammo in the chamber daily, the other when issued. Still, I would rather go to war with them than the Medical Commander who kept the unit's rifle bolts locked in an ammo crate under his desk, even during a field training exercise when the unit was issued blanks.

Oldguy, if your initial point was that there isn't enough weapons training in IET at all levels, I agree. There isn't, and it's a reflection of our society today.

 

[Old Guy]

LEOs can be changed

A good friend of mine, a Sgt. in a large PD, was on a course, detecting of some nature, in the Police College.

As a Glock fan, I had given him a Kydex holster, and a single mag; pouch, he had used them on a good leather belt for some two years. (Glock 22)

When jackets were hung on the back of chairs "You are carrying a gun?" a shocked instructor said, no one else was. Chris said we are to be armed on duty always. Next day, a couple more with guns on, the end of the week all!

I always taught hot range, simple rule, it only comes out of the holster, on the range, under a ROs command. Twenty three years, one ND, into the wooden sub floor on an indoor range (used the incident as a training lesson, culprit finished top of the class) weapon that did this "Shooting on it's own" a S&W Model 64 stainless steel .38 Special Revolver, we all had ear muffs and safety glasses on, 8 students, and me.