my problem with pumps. any semi auto shotgun hd suggestions?

[bullseyebob47]

i had problems with several 870 pumps, switched to mossberg 500 and was much improved but still have problems. first time i shoot the 500 in a month, i used full power 12 ga buck 2 3/4". the recoil is fine by me but the forearm moves back automatically and this time it went far enough to eject the shell which i saw so i moved the forearm forward thinking the next shell went in but it did not.

im well aware of short stroking but it always seems to get me when i first shoot after a while. i also short stroke while duck hunting and not concentrating while pumping real fast. how likely am i to mess up the pumping half asleep with a home invader? very likely imo. time to look for a semi auto shotgun for hd.

i don't care to spend more than $500 to $600 but it has to be reliable with full power buckshot and slugs. not needed for hunting, just hd. i watched a little on the mossberg 930. looks good. open to suggestions.

 

[Fishbed77]

A Remington 11-87P is close to ideal if you can find one. I certainly prefer them to the Mossberg 930s. The 1100 Tactical is similar, but is limited to 2 3/4" shells.

After that point, you are stepping up in price to the various Benellis or the FN SLP.

 

[AI&P Tactical]

You may benifit by a Coach gun for HD. The Remington 1100 or 11-87 is unfit for fighting as they have to be fired from a solid shoulder to cycle. The Versa Max does not have these issues but the shortest barrel for that at this time is 22".

 

[BP Hunter]

I have a Mossber SA20 - semiauto 20 gauge that i have been very happy with. Though less than a 20 gauge it is still a very formidable round.

 

[Black Knight]

Pumps guns are designed so that after the shot has been fired the bolt unlocks allowing the forend to slide back toward the receiver due to recoil. This allows for a faster followup shot. My Remington 870 and Winchester 1200 do this and the Mossberg 500 at work also do this. The only real way to avoid the short stroking issue is to keep practicing with it, unloaded then loaded (preferrably on the range). In the field bring the forend back with a good amount for force and this should help prevent the short stroking problem.

 

[dak0ta]

+1 on practice more with the pump. It's more important to practice reloading and keeping the weapon topped up.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Do you still have a pumpgun at home?

If so, when time permits, retrieve it. Clear it. Press check the chamber and the magazine (stick a finger in each hole and make sure no ammo is there). Then visually check it again to make triple sure it is clear.

Shoulder it. Press the action release. Bring the forearm firmly back all the way to the rear till it stops and you feel it stop and count out loud - ONE.

Then push the forearm briskly all the way forward until it stops and you feel it stop, and count out loud - TWO.

Repeat for a while.

When you cannot pump the gun without hearing yourself say ONE when the forearm comes to the rear and you feel it stop, then TWO when the forearm goes all the way forward and you feel it stop, you'll be done short stroking for good.

Otherwise, spend twice or three times as much $$ on a semiauto. But you'll still need to learn how to run that gun too. It just has different quirks.

Running a pump is like driving a manual transmission - a good skill to have, in case that's all that is available to you.

 

[Virginian]

An 1100 or an 11-87 does NOT have to be fired from a solid shoulder to cycle. You are thinking of recoil and inertia actioned guns. I have shot them one handed to demonstrate the minimal recoil for new shooters, and many years back I tried to rig up a pendulum system to try to measure recoil after the stress gauges proved too finicky (didn't work). The gun cycled fine, but catching it was brutal.

 

[rule303]

The Mossberg 930 would be my first choice. You should be able to find the HD version for right around $500. You could probably come up with a used 1100 in that price range too, but most of them will have bird barrels.
Changing equipment is no replacement for practice. I would try to master the pump before you change platforms, then decide if you still want to go with the auto. Mechanical malfunctions are rare for either action with full power ammo. If you do decide to go auto, make sure to practice malfunction drills, as it is less intuitive than with a pump, especially under pressure.

 

[Clippers]

Very few guns are more reliable than a pump shotgun. Plus the sound of the action being cycled break all language barriers.

 

[Fast Frank]

Very few guns are more reliable than a pump shotgun. Plus the sound of the action being cycled break all language barriers.

There it is again: The idea that a pump is better than an auto because a pump makes "The racking sound" and an auto doesn't.

That's ridiculous.

Click on the pic and watch the video- the pump and the auto sound the same.

 

[Virginian]

If I ever have to use it, the only sound the perp may hear is the soft snick of the safety before lights out. The idea of racking a gun hoping the sound will scare someone off is absurd in my opinion. If they are armed you just gave them notice and location.

 

[bubba in ca]

I think I am in the habit of ``leaning`` forward on the forearm until I am ready to cycle the gun in one clean move. I also notice that my older mossberg is very easy to control as it is well broken in. My never one is stiff and more problem prone but i am sure it will work in with time.

Pumps are greatly more prone to operator error. Autos are slightly more prone to mechanical error. You pays your nickle and takes your choice.

 

[Fishbed77]

The Remington 1100 or 11-87 is unfit for fighting as they have to be fired from a solid shoulder to cycle.

That's utter nonsense.

Being gas operated, they no more need to be fired from a shoulder than an AR-15 or AK-47.

Not that you should be firing an HD shotgun from anywhere but the shoulder anyway.

 

[Fishbed77]

Very few guns are more reliable than a pump shotgun. Plus the sound of the action being cycled break all language barriers.

There are two myths in that one statement.

1) I've seen plenty of malfunctions over the years with various pump shotguns (both mechanical and user-induced). I have a 20-year-old 11-87 Premier (my primary hunting shotgun) that has NEVER malfunctioned. Pump shotguns may handle a wider range of loads reliably, but they can still fail. Especially if you are not skilled in using one. Don't get me wrong - I like pump guns. My primary HD shotgun is a Mossberg M590A1.

2) Relying on the sound a gun makes when being charged (rather than the performance of the firearm and more importantly, your skill in using it) is a recipe for disaster. Moreover, as others have shown, they sound no different than semi-autos.

 

[7mmsavage]

Frank, you said it before I could, I'm so tired of hearing about the racking sound! No offense meant to you Clippers, it's just that ive heard it so many times. I don't doubt that an unarmed bad guy would pee himself at the thought of a shotgun being made ready around the corner. An armed bad guy on the other hand, (or even an unknowing good guy), might just put a few rounds through a wall upon hearing that racking sound.

All that said, I like pump shotguns just fine. My first shotgun was a 500 and I shot it a lot, never had a problem. I've had one semi auto, an old Franchi, one double barrel and even an old bolt action. I'm not a much of a shot gunner though, so they're all gone. My only shotgun now is an 870, it was inexpensive simple and will do whatever I want to do with it.

Edit: Took too long typing. Looks like several of us have the same feeling about scaring away an attacker with a noise.

 

[jmr40]

The Remington 1100 or 11-87 is unfit for fighting as they have to be fired from a solid shoulder to cycle.

That's utter nonsense.

Being gas operated, they no more need to be fired from a shoulder than an AR-15 or AK-47.

Not that you should be firing an HD shotgun from anywhere but the shoulder anyway.

I know conventional wisdom says the opposite, but I've owned several 11-87's in the past. NONE would reliably cycle unless held to the shoulder. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. The inertia operated Benelli I replaced it with will reliably cycle held in any position every time.

This is really a wash anyway. There is always the possibility of having one arm or hand injured in a SD situation. It is easier to operate a semi with 1 arm if forced to even if you do have to put it to your shoulder. And why I really prefer a handgun anyway.

Pumps are more reliable in theory. In actual practice any quality semi will be more reliable. The pumps greater asset is that it will continue to function if abused or dirty longer than a semi. If you spend enough time practicing a pump can become 2nd nature. It is for me, but like you I'd still rather have a semi for HD. In a TEOTWAWKI situation I'd take a pump.

With your budget an 1187 would still be a good choice if you can find one with a suitable shorter barrel. Just be advised that you cannot buy one with a longer sporting barrel and shorten it like you can with a pump. Gas operated semi's are set up to function at a certain barrel length. Cutting it back will make it unreliable. Not an issue with pumps. 1187's with barrels shorter than 26" are also only designed to function with heavy magnum loads, so it couldn't be used to practice or hunt with using lighter field loads.

No personal experience, but the Mossberg gets good reviews. It looks like a solid option too.

 

[bullseyebob47]

so i should get a mossberg or used remington semi auto if i want reliability for $500 to $600. stay away from the cheaper semi autos like tri star $300 something, charles daily, and all the cheaper ones?

and what about the SAIGA 12 with full power shells? are they reliable out of the box?

 

[rule303]

If you want new, Mossberg is your best bet. The Tristars really aren't bad, but accessories are non-existent. The Saiga is a fun range toy, but certainly wouldn't be my choice for a dedicated HD gun.

 

[I6turbo]

Browning Auto 5 is my choice for HD. If you want one to cut off for a maneuverable HD gun, buy one with a Polychoke or similar because they don't bring a lot of money (even though it's a great piece of workmanship and design that would probably cost a ton if manufactured in the same manner today). I bought the 1954 model below for $281 plus transfer, in outstanding mechanical condition and very good cosmetic condition. I've seen other good condition Auto 5s go for similar prices or slightly higher. Replace the rubber pad with a hard plastic one and the LOP is short enough (or you can always cut the stock), cut the barrel back, set the friction rings for the loads of your choice and you're good to go. And ignore anyone who tells you they won't cycle reliably when fired from the hip 'cause it ain't so.

 

[horsemen61]

Practice makes perfect just keep at it

 

[mljdeckard]

How do you screw up running an 870?

 

[ugaarguy]

How do you screw up running an 870?

It's called short stroking, and it's exactly as described in the OP. It's more common than you think.

 

[I6turbo]

It's called short stroking, and it's exactly as described in the OP. It's more common than you think.

And would be even more common in a panic, life-or-death situation, especially by a wife or significant other who might only have very little training or familiarity with the operation of the gun. I've seen less experienced people short-stroke a pump in a hunting or even target shooting situation, which is child's play compared to the state of mind in which would exist in, say, confronting a home invasion or armed robbery.

 

[chuckpro]

I also agree that short stroking is a potential problem then most people don't realize.
I have a few 870's and have one that i have put thousands of rounds through the pipe. Shot a lot of clays with it and hunt Doves . But every one in a while in a Dove field with multiple birds in the air I will short stroke.

I know you can say you can train this away but you have to duplicate the high stress high anxiety of the situation to train in. I have never short stroked my 870 shooting at clays even when i am just messing around with buddies shooting tipples.