My SD Shooting
- Thread starter SquirrelNuts
- Start date
- Status
Just my two cents...
12 gauge 2 3/4" (7cm) length 00 buck shell, which contains 9 pellets 8.4mm (.33 inch) in diameter ?
At less than 20 yards, I think I would prefer to hit a dog once with 1/9 pellets than to miss altogether with a slug. I thought the whole point of the shotgun was to get those free misses.
When would a slug be better than a rifle round? I'm not sure what I'm missing here.
12 gauge 2 3/4" (7cm) length 00 buck shell, which contains 9 pellets 8.4mm (.33 inch) in diameter ?
At less than 20 yards, I think I would prefer to hit a dog once with 1/9 pellets than to miss altogether with a slug. I thought the whole point of the shotgun was to get those free misses.
When would a slug be better than a rifle round? I'm not sure what I'm missing here.
SquirrelNuts
Member
Just a difference in selection based upon the sum of life experiences.
statelineblues
Member
I always kept my HD 12 ga. shotgun loaded (2 3/4" shells) this way:
Round 1: Rifled Slug (Chambered w/ safety on)
Round 2: Rifled Slug
Round 3: 'OO' Buck
Round 4: 'OO' Buck
Round 5: Rifled Slug
Round 6: 'O' Buck
Round 1: Rifled Slug (Chambered w/ safety on)
Round 2: Rifled Slug
Round 3: 'OO' Buck
Round 4: 'OO' Buck
Round 5: Rifled Slug
Round 6: 'O' Buck
sm
member
SquirrelNuts,
I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with us. It is difficult enough as is, then add doing so on a public Internet forum.
The reality is, all any of us, can really share, are our personal experiences and observations.
I was not present when SquirrelNuts had this event take place, so instead I am going to express my gratitude for him sharing and learn something from it.
Me personally?
I too have had 00 buck not perform.
These were 2 3/4" , nine pellet 00 buck loads, that had been patterned and fit that gun barrel and how choked very very well. My hits were spot on.
Now I am just a dumb southern boy, publik skooled, that has only fired tens of thousands of shotgun rds.
I am not smart enough to keep up with what shell is what, so I only load up one kind of loading.
During Serious, my focus is on the threat, not the equipment. On a repeating shotgun, I keep it fed using the mag ( keeping the mag fed) on a break open, I keep the chamber/chambers loaded.
Investigate & Verify, then hope like heck you never have to actually find out with a real Serious Situation.
Targets , such as critters, do not read gun magazines, firearm mfg ads, ammo mfg ads, or participate in Internet Fora.
They do not know what they are "supposed to do" , or how they are "supposed to react"...according to the various ads, marketing and Internet Fora postings.
I appreciate you taking the time to share your experience with us. It is difficult enough as is, then add doing so on a public Internet forum.
The reality is, all any of us, can really share, are our personal experiences and observations.
I was not present when SquirrelNuts had this event take place, so instead I am going to express my gratitude for him sharing and learn something from it.
Me personally?
I too have had 00 buck not perform.
These were 2 3/4" , nine pellet 00 buck loads, that had been patterned and fit that gun barrel and how choked very very well. My hits were spot on.
Now I am just a dumb southern boy, publik skooled, that has only fired tens of thousands of shotgun rds.
I am not smart enough to keep up with what shell is what, so I only load up one kind of loading.
During Serious, my focus is on the threat, not the equipment. On a repeating shotgun, I keep it fed using the mag ( keeping the mag fed) on a break open, I keep the chamber/chambers loaded.
Investigate & Verify, then hope like heck you never have to actually find out with a real Serious Situation.
Targets , such as critters, do not read gun magazines, firearm mfg ads, ammo mfg ads, or participate in Internet Fora.
They do not know what they are "supposed to do" , or how they are "supposed to react"...according to the various ads, marketing and Internet Fora postings.
Thanks for the article. Just opened up a box of slugs I had in the safe and switched my rotation.
Previously had it set up 100% 00 Buck.
Currently:
PPC 3 Dram 9 - 00 Buck
Federal Hydra-Shok HP 1oz Slugs
Mostly worried about the usual dog/invader attack but we have mountain lions occasionally spotted around my home.
My fear is one of my girls getting attacked in the yard or something. If it's a big cat, I might opt to go .223 though...
Not a big decision I'm sure I won't waste time deciding which to grab, they'll be 3" apart on a rack.
Previously had it set up 100% 00 Buck.
Currently:
PPC 3 Dram 9 - 00 Buck
Federal Hydra-Shok HP 1oz Slugs
Mostly worried about the usual dog/invader attack but we have mountain lions occasionally spotted around my home.
My fear is one of my girls getting attacked in the yard or something. If it's a big cat, I might opt to go .223 though...
Not a big decision I'm sure I won't waste time deciding which to grab, they'll be 3" apart on a rack.
combatantr2
Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 251
My dog story
Our neighbor, about 4 houses away, decided to pass time at our neighborhood barber shop and forgot to fully close their gate and their doberman conveniently sneak out leaving everyone in the 10 meter radius locked-up inside their property for about an hour. What I feared most that day was my wife coming home exactly at that very hour. I called her up advised her of the situation telling her to delay her coming home or passtime somewhere else until the dog has been kept.
While everyone else in the neighborhood was safely tucked in their property behind the lock gates, I decided to call our local 911 and requested for the animal control team and explained the situation, and guess what I was given another no. to report the matter. Called that no. for a good 15mins. and no response. Now at this very time children were coming home as well from school and fearing that worse may yet to come I decided to capture the dog by myself (hero huh), but the plan was I would barricade myself behind my grill gates while trying to lure the dog with a dog bone, and slipping thru my hands thru the gate and slip thru the leash over the dog's head. Sounds like a simple plan, but it proved more difficult than imagined. Sounds like a failure. Decided eventually to open up the gate a bit so it will be more easier for me to slip the leash, but decided to get some back-up tools. Got the 1911 and a 6inch kitchen knife. Cocked and locked the pistol, open carry right hand side , and the knife on the left hand. I reckoned that the knife would be a good back-up weapon in case I would need to use the gun and failed to down or miss my shots. The knife would be the perfect weapon in a brawl match against the animal. Opened the gate, sneaked out my hand while my right foot acted like a stopper against the gate in case the dog would ram the gate. As I was in the process, and just about to slip thru the leash with the dog bone in sight, luring the dog to get near me, the owner was running like hell towards his beloved dog. Obviously caught by surprise realizing that everyone was locked behind gates, he expressed full regret over the incident but was shocked to see the weapons I had with me. I told him that everything was for protection as I had every intention to capture the dog unharmed. The guy felt sorry and apologized to everyone in the community. After a brief lecture from everyone he went home tugging the dog away with him.
Our neighbor, about 4 houses away, decided to pass time at our neighborhood barber shop and forgot to fully close their gate and their doberman conveniently sneak out leaving everyone in the 10 meter radius locked-up inside their property for about an hour. What I feared most that day was my wife coming home exactly at that very hour. I called her up advised her of the situation telling her to delay her coming home or passtime somewhere else until the dog has been kept.
While everyone else in the neighborhood was safely tucked in their property behind the lock gates, I decided to call our local 911 and requested for the animal control team and explained the situation, and guess what I was given another no. to report the matter. Called that no. for a good 15mins. and no response. Now at this very time children were coming home as well from school and fearing that worse may yet to come I decided to capture the dog by myself (hero huh), but the plan was I would barricade myself behind my grill gates while trying to lure the dog with a dog bone, and slipping thru my hands thru the gate and slip thru the leash over the dog's head. Sounds like a simple plan, but it proved more difficult than imagined. Sounds like a failure. Decided eventually to open up the gate a bit so it will be more easier for me to slip the leash, but decided to get some back-up tools. Got the 1911 and a 6inch kitchen knife. Cocked and locked the pistol, open carry right hand side , and the knife on the left hand. I reckoned that the knife would be a good back-up weapon in case I would need to use the gun and failed to down or miss my shots. The knife would be the perfect weapon in a brawl match against the animal. Opened the gate, sneaked out my hand while my right foot acted like a stopper against the gate in case the dog would ram the gate. As I was in the process, and just about to slip thru the leash with the dog bone in sight, luring the dog to get near me, the owner was running like hell towards his beloved dog. Obviously caught by surprise realizing that everyone was locked behind gates, he expressed full regret over the incident but was shocked to see the weapons I had with me. I told him that everything was for protection as I had every intention to capture the dog unharmed. The guy felt sorry and apologized to everyone in the community. After a brief lecture from everyone he went home tugging the dog away with him.
Fred Fuller
Moderator Emeritus
At best, personal preferences are based on training, practice and real world experience. Fortunately for all of us, that real world experience doesn't have to be exclusively our own. Experience reported from other people who are trusted sources is useful also.
I prefer not to use reduced recoil buckshot, given a choice, because I have heard too many reports from reliable sources of its failure to perform adequately. It may still be a viable choice for a recoil-shy shooter who will literally be using it at across-the-room distances. I do prefer buckshot in defensive shotguns for close-in work (within 25 yards or so), but I prefer full velocity loads that pattern tightly. Right now that's Federal LE-127 00 9-pellet loads at an advertised 1325 FPS.
We keep slugs in the Sidesaddles of the defensive shotguns here, in case more range or greater penetration than buckshot allows is ever needed. We live in a rural area, overpenetration is not really an issue, but it's possible that a shotgun might be needed outside where range can stretch out well beyond 25 yards.
I am definitely not a proponent of 'dutch loading' or 'candy cane' loading a defensive shotgun. I think it's critical to know what will be coming out of the muzzle every time the trigger is pressed. It's a rare individual indeed who can keep their wits unscrambled enough in a fight for their life to count the number of shots they've fired. I've watched it happen to a couple of dozen shotgun students on the firing line in training- I can imagine how much worse the stress would be in a gunfight.
This is a good opportunity to rethink a number of things. Shotguns, despite their power, throw weight and bore size, are not death rays. Even using a shotgun, and even using only slugs, you need to train yourself to prepare instantly to fire another round if needed. Big game hunters have a saying: "It's always the dead ones that kill you."
Things don't always work out the way you had planned, or the way you had thought they would, or even the way you desperately hoped they would. Hope, in spite of its ringing endorsement by the current administration, is a pretty poor game plan if it's all you have going for you.
Murphy loves you so much he's always hanging around, and he hates you so much he's always looking for a way to mess up your life. Don't take anything for granted, follow through on your shots (yes, with a shotgun too), run the bolt and get ready to shoot again if necessary. And if you aren't shooting, you should be moving to cover, and if you aren't shooting from behind cover, you better be loading behind cover.
Shotgun magazines are notoriously lacking in capacity no matter how big they are. And you CAN miss with a shotgun- even with shot loads, pattern size is little bigger than bore size at close range. Even with full 30" patterns, shotgunners still miss- go watch people shooting trap or skeet, or especially sporting clays. Sometimes even hits don't produce the results you wanted- shotgun master Louis Awerbuck describes for every class how he watched a shotgun slug deflect off the bill of a baseball cap 'worn' by a 3-D target in one of his classes. Remember Murphy? You can bet he hasn't forgotten you.
Stay Safe, y'all-
lpl
I prefer not to use reduced recoil buckshot, given a choice, because I have heard too many reports from reliable sources of its failure to perform adequately. It may still be a viable choice for a recoil-shy shooter who will literally be using it at across-the-room distances. I do prefer buckshot in defensive shotguns for close-in work (within 25 yards or so), but I prefer full velocity loads that pattern tightly. Right now that's Federal LE-127 00 9-pellet loads at an advertised 1325 FPS.
We keep slugs in the Sidesaddles of the defensive shotguns here, in case more range or greater penetration than buckshot allows is ever needed. We live in a rural area, overpenetration is not really an issue, but it's possible that a shotgun might be needed outside where range can stretch out well beyond 25 yards.
I am definitely not a proponent of 'dutch loading' or 'candy cane' loading a defensive shotgun. I think it's critical to know what will be coming out of the muzzle every time the trigger is pressed. It's a rare individual indeed who can keep their wits unscrambled enough in a fight for their life to count the number of shots they've fired. I've watched it happen to a couple of dozen shotgun students on the firing line in training- I can imagine how much worse the stress would be in a gunfight.
This is a good opportunity to rethink a number of things. Shotguns, despite their power, throw weight and bore size, are not death rays. Even using a shotgun, and even using only slugs, you need to train yourself to prepare instantly to fire another round if needed. Big game hunters have a saying: "It's always the dead ones that kill you."
Things don't always work out the way you had planned, or the way you had thought they would, or even the way you desperately hoped they would. Hope, in spite of its ringing endorsement by the current administration, is a pretty poor game plan if it's all you have going for you.
Murphy loves you so much he's always hanging around, and he hates you so much he's always looking for a way to mess up your life. Don't take anything for granted, follow through on your shots (yes, with a shotgun too), run the bolt and get ready to shoot again if necessary. And if you aren't shooting, you should be moving to cover, and if you aren't shooting from behind cover, you better be loading behind cover.
Shotgun magazines are notoriously lacking in capacity no matter how big they are. And you CAN miss with a shotgun- even with shot loads, pattern size is little bigger than bore size at close range. Even with full 30" patterns, shotgunners still miss- go watch people shooting trap or skeet, or especially sporting clays. Sometimes even hits don't produce the results you wanted- shotgun master Louis Awerbuck describes for every class how he watched a shotgun slug deflect off the bill of a baseball cap 'worn' by a 3-D target in one of his classes. Remember Murphy? You can bet he hasn't forgotten you.
Stay Safe, y'all-
lpl
wyocarp
Member
Yep, on the cd I received from NRA yesterday had everyone practicing two or three rounds. I'm thinking that every once in a while one should empty the gun.
Zerodefect
member
Reduced recoil 00 buck should put down a pitbull or person down well enough. You do have to hit them.....practice, practice, practice. You do have to aim a shotgun. The spread is fairly small at close range as you found out. Thanks for the lesson.
I stick to regular 00 buckshot. No slugs. Especially in a crowded neighborhood. If a more powerful round than 00 is wanted, get an AR15 in 5.56. Easier to aim, lighter, faster, less recoil. Put an Eotech or aimpoint on it.
I can understand slugs on the side for rural work as noted above.
No real need to change your setup to slugs. Just go back to regular 00 and this time hit your target better.
I stick to regular 00 buckshot. No slugs. Especially in a crowded neighborhood. If a more powerful round than 00 is wanted, get an AR15 in 5.56. Easier to aim, lighter, faster, less recoil. Put an Eotech or aimpoint on it.
I can understand slugs on the side for rural work as noted above.
No real need to change your setup to slugs. Just go back to regular 00 and this time hit your target better.
76shuvlinoff
Member
Glad it came out ok, so far I have managed to chase off non aggressive but hesitant strays with a round in the dirt... Aggressive strays don't get that benefit.
True story, woke up this morning a little after 5 to my own dogs raising hell. Went out with my 1894c and found two extra horses looking for breakfast. Everybody else gets stray dogs or cats. What the heck? Corralled em and fed em. Called the neighbor about 7 and asked if he needed help fixing his fence. His response.. "huh?"
Turns out his fence is fine, he just forgot the part about closing his gate last night.
Which begs the question.. what caliber for Quarterhorse?
True story, woke up this morning a little after 5 to my own dogs raising hell. Went out with my 1894c and found two extra horses looking for breakfast. Everybody else gets stray dogs or cats. What the heck? Corralled em and fed em. Called the neighbor about 7 and asked if he needed help fixing his fence. His response.. "huh?"
Turns out his fence is fine, he just forgot the part about closing his gate last night.
Which begs the question.. what caliber for Quarterhorse?
SquirrelNuts
Member
Mr. Ed gone mad? .22 LR
chiselchst
Member
Great Thread
Having never encountered such a SD situation, I really appreciate folks sharing their personal experiences. You were gut level honest, and I appreciate your sharing this experience.
I just hope I would have the stones you had, if I ever encounter such a situation.
I love dogs very much, but one does have to protect themselves from animals that, through the lack of a responsible owner, can harm humans or other pets.
I'm very happy to hear that LE cleared your actions quickly.
Thanks for taking the risk of sharing your very personal experience...
Mitch
PS I love this quote by Lee Lapin:
Having never encountered such a SD situation, I really appreciate folks sharing their personal experiences. You were gut level honest, and I appreciate your sharing this experience.
I just hope I would have the stones you had, if I ever encounter such a situation.
I love dogs very much, but one does have to protect themselves from animals that, through the lack of a responsible owner, can harm humans or other pets.
I'm very happy to hear that LE cleared your actions quickly.
Thanks for taking the risk of sharing your very personal experience...
Mitch
PS I love this quote by Lee Lapin:
chieftain
Member
I am certainly glad you survived your animal attack but dreams are not the answer to poor marksmanship, poor ammunition selection or poor tactics. Mindset, training, practice and getting your information from accurate, reputable, and knowledgeable sources will help you win firefights.
May I suggest, for those enamored of the shotgun, a little reference material:
I use the FBI/Dr Gary Roberts recommendation for my ammunition selection, including my shot shells too. Who do you use for reference in selection of your ammo, Dreams, your imagination, or the gun shop/internet Commando’s?
I personally stoke my shotty’s with #1 buck for inside the house defense only. If a slug is required, I would prefer a rifle which is usually much more accurate and most often much more effective on target than any shotgun.
If I expect to engage outside at all, I will be using either a carbine, or rifle. My EBR is set up for Home Defense with the addition of a bright light mounted along with the Aimpoint M3 (the reddot is on 24/7 because of the Aimpoint’s extremely long battery life. I change my battery‘s early for reliability's sake, once every three years). The light is not a big hindrance if I have to go play outside, and if that time outside should be extended the light is in a quick release Larue mount and comes off fast and quick, and into the bug out bag (BOB) which has additional rifle magazines, shotgun shells, a pistol with additional magazines, 3X Aimpoint magnifier, water, Trauma kit, additional flashlights, batteries etc. It is a grab and dash over the head bag co-located with the carbine and shotgun.
I respectfully disagree. Firing weapons off in hopes of success rarely brings it. In fact it is the basis of many superstitions, to scare off the “bad” or “evil” spirits. I have found hitting the target as the most effective means of employing firearms if shots are going to be fired. Also loose unaimed rounds that miss the target can wind up in places that can get you in a lot of trouble, and other folks, often innocent folks, badly hurt or dead.
I do not subscribe to this defense tactic at all.
I have found, in the many fire fights I was involved in, the first to hit effectively produced many more successful outcomes than smoke, noise, sturm, and fury. Wishful thinking may have won a firefight or two. But loud noise never won a firefight I was involved with.
Well said, Sir.
I have always considered O’Leary’s corollary on Murphy’s law:
“Murphy, is an optimist.”
I try to have every ‘n’th of advantage in my favor before the fight I can get, because surely, when you are deep in the Kimshie, it rarely gets better or improves, until it’s over if ever. Of course your combat experience maybe much more extensive and “better” than mine.
Go figure.
Fred
I used to have to shoot dogs out at my mom's house which is in the sticks. People would dump fighting dogs out there so I'd pop 'em with an old Marlin .22 Rifle. Easy shots even at 100 feet away. CCI Stinger Hollowpoints would drop them fast.
THEN I got attacked by a big black mongrel dog while walking. I pulled my .45 and fired three times. At the first shot, the dog was 3 feet away and closing. At the third, it was 20 feet away, haulin butt the other direction. I missed every dang shot.
It's a big difference when the dog is trying to chew on you!
THEN I got attacked by a big black mongrel dog while walking. I pulled my .45 and fired three times. At the first shot, the dog was 3 feet away and closing. At the third, it was 20 feet away, haulin butt the other direction. I missed every dang shot.
It's a big difference when the dog is trying to chew on you!
The only times i had to use a weapon on a dog it was a Rot going after some cattle.....30-06 one shot CM and a pittbull charging me after it went after the rat terrier out in rural ohio I am pretty lucky i had my Taurus PT99 it was a pitty my shot count was 5 shots..with 3 hits of winchester FMJ..I practice a lot more now and use hollowpoints all the time even if its just walking around plinking. I know that i wouldnt ever want to shoot another dog but if its me r them.....no doubt in my mind what will happen.
Kayback
Member
The closest I have ever been to shooting a dog was drawing my 1911 on a rottweiler that was charging down my 3 year old. We were at a beach, which was dog friendly.
The dog charged at her growling, barking and spraying spittle everywhere. And not joyful barking.
3 year old got scooped up into my weak arm as my strong arm grabbed gun and it cleared leather.
"Fluffy" was about half a second away from meeting a 200grain CorBon JHP when it's owner appeared, blocking my shot and fortunately stopping the animal.
I then got shouted at for being mean to her poor little doggy that weighed about 3 times what my kid did, and it was taller than my kid. Honestly. I'm all for dog friendly beaches, but keep the thing under control. While she was yelling at me she clipped a leash that I'd be happy using as a heavy load tie down onto the animal and had to bodily DRAG it away.
Fortunately the cops were fairly lenient on my dragging my EBP into the light in public. They even took down the complaint against the dog owner, who had left by then.
I haven't got my point across very well. I honestly believed the animal was going to injure my daughter. I also honestly believe that if the owner hadn't stepped in I would have needed to shoot.
The dog charged at her growling, barking and spraying spittle everywhere. And not joyful barking.
3 year old got scooped up into my weak arm as my strong arm grabbed gun and it cleared leather.
"Fluffy" was about half a second away from meeting a 200grain CorBon JHP when it's owner appeared, blocking my shot and fortunately stopping the animal.
I then got shouted at for being mean to her poor little doggy that weighed about 3 times what my kid did, and it was taller than my kid. Honestly. I'm all for dog friendly beaches, but keep the thing under control. While she was yelling at me she clipped a leash that I'd be happy using as a heavy load tie down onto the animal and had to bodily DRAG it away.
Fortunately the cops were fairly lenient on my dragging my EBP into the light in public. They even took down the complaint against the dog owner, who had left by then.
I haven't got my point across very well. I honestly believed the animal was going to injure my daughter. I also honestly believe that if the owner hadn't stepped in I would have needed to shoot.
Last edited:
mossberg
Member
What's used to being shot at? Don't say gangsters and targets.
chieftain
Member
As a Marine with two tours in Vietnam, I got "used" to being shot at. Although no one is ever truly "used" to it, just it isn't a "new" situation and you get used to functioning appropriately while under fire.
No hero's just experience.
Go figure.
Fred
SquirrelNuts
Member
Probably one of the most valuable life experiences you can get. I mean that in being able to function under stress, and you probably have a much different threshold for what you stress about. So many people worry about money, and I like the phrase, "relax, it's just money. You shouldn't stress unless someone is trying to kill you."
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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- Nov 14, 2007
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By the way...
Chieftan - THANKS for the excellent post!
Chieftan - THANKS for the excellent post!
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