My take on the most beat up question in CCW

[DAP90]

Sure sounds like the incident happened at very close range. If a guy gets close with a knife and wants to cut you, you will be cut. You may kill him but you are still going to get cut.

I have the feeling the most common reaction after a shooting is to get a bigger gun. Most people over estimate what a bullet from a handgun does.

I was just about to say that exact thing. My other comment wasn't entirely fair.

If I had been cut and required 120 stitches I'd be looking for a more effective gun too. That would certainly be a life changing event.

That said, if I can agree that a more effective gun after an event like that is understandable than I could reasonably agree that maybe I should look for one before the event ever happens; within reason of course.

In this case I still don't think a larger caliber would have been the deciding factor but it couldn't hurt.

 

[nipsip]

IMO, your CCW should always be the one you practice with. If you practice with a magazine extender you should not leave it off when your carry. When I practice with the CCW, I do it at 25 feet max. I think after 600+ rounds thru my CCW, I feel I am accurate and comfortable. I also practice drawing, until it is second nature. BTW practice has led to changes in location of the CCW.

My CCW is a G33. My fingers are not large and with the practice, I am comfortable and accurate at 25 feet. I do not use the extender or a larger magazine. I carry it in a Remora IWB.

For practice ammo I use the 125gr FMJ from Georgia Arms $0.38 a round including postage. I carry it with the 125gr unicore hollow point.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

DPotvin,

I never said I thought the guy in my tale wouldn't have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber...I was passing along his story, which if you read what I wrote and took it for what it was, you'd see that obviously he was the one that thought he might not have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Actually, we haven't. At least I haven't. Consider this a small challenge -- find one & post it.

I'm still looking for it. My google-fu is weak today. I've save the thread and will pm you when I find the article. I remember being shocked that a woman could be shot in the chest with a 45 and walk down the street to the bus stop where she finally sat down.

On a side note, I found a kid that survived a 45-70 to the shoulder on another forum...and it didn't hit anything vital.

Gun shot wounds are strange things. There are so many variables other than caliber. My basic assumption is yes, bigger bullets like the 45 and 40 are better but only marginal better IMO. I would (and do) trust my life and my family's life to 9mm or 38 specials.

 

[DAP90]

DPotvin,

I never said I thought the guy in my tale wouldn't have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber...I was passing along his story, which if you read what I wrote and took it for what it was, you'd see that obviously he was the one that thought he might not have gotten cut if he had used a larger caliber.

True enough, I should have been more careful with my phrasing.

 

[Ichiro]

The most important thing is to have a gun that you can deploy quickly, when you need it.

 

[JQP]

I have decided to CCW this, because I'm tired of pondering what is or isn't adequate for self defense, and this relieves me of that burden:

The worlds most powerful pistol is the Austrian Pfeifer-Zeliska .600 Nitro Express Magnum. It is chambered to fire the British developed .600 caliber rifle bullet originally made by Holland and Holland. This revolver was not originally a full production model but a bespoke one off, built especially for a wealthy Swiss gentleman...Mr. Zeliska.

But if you would like one and I am sure that a few of you 'gunslingers' with a bit of disposable income would, then contact Pfeifer arms ( url near bottom of page ) and they will actually make one for you. Priced at 13,840 Euro's, this equates as $17,316* or £11,722* including Tax ( *at Exchange rate as of 20 November 2008 )

One company still actually make these rounds and they are Kynoch at www.kynochusa.com

The images below shows almost actual size of the .600 Nitro Express round, the bullet of which can go clean through a 10mm steel plate at 12 meters like a hot knife through butter. The cartridge on the end is a .700 Nitro Express, this is currently the worlds most powerful rifle cartridge and its probably just a matter of time until a revolver is developed for it.

.600 Nitro Express ballistics:

900 or 1040 grain bullet 1600 -2100 fps velocity 8000- 10,000 ft.lbs Muzzle Energy or over 4 tons of energy. This 1040 grain bullet can of course be fired in the Zeliska, but a bit more safely, as with the Zeliska the recoil is arrested quite well.

Note: All handgun bullets can never be as powerful as when fired through a rifle, and the .600 Nitro Express is then even more powerful.

 

[DanTheFarmer]

Here's my $0.02,

To me the real purpose of carrying any weapon (including your own fists and feet for you martial arts types) is peace of mind. Have you made an informed choice about your weapon of choice? Are you comfortable with your weapon of choice and level of proficiency? If so, you are in good shape.

We can all construct scenarios in which ANY chosen weapon is either adequate or inadequate. My recommendation is to read up to get some facts, get some opinions from experienced people, think about your situation, and then make up your own mind.

For me 32 ACP and above makes me comfortable that I could influence a bad situation to go in my favor.

Good Luck to all.

Dan

 

[AKElroy]

Actually, we haven't. At least I haven't. Consider this a small challenge -- find one & post it.

I'm still looking for it. My google-fu is weak today.

I guess that's the point. I read the article you PM'd, and the BG in that article was hit in his extremeties, not his torso. Even though he was not lethally wounded, he still beat a quick retreat. By the way, I do not disagree with you regarding the 9mm or .38 spcl. I carry both often & I feel well protected. My argument for decent power is against those that say load is irrelevant to shot placement. I disagree. Both load AND placement are critical.

 

[mustang_steve]

This is one of those circular discussion where very little gets done.

One side is all about shot placement and really doesn't mind caliber much

The other side is all about MORE POWER! (insert Tim Allen grunting here)

Both sides have their merits...stopping power is good, but so is shot placement and/or ammo capacity.

What I'd like to see is a Glock26 sized .380, with some serious ammo capacity, as much as can possibly fit without an extended length mag. That would be a beast of a defensive weapon for having acceptable power, high ammo capacity and low recoil due to the size of the firearm.

 

[shep854]

"The one sentence answer to the question is, "Carry the biggest caliber you can CONTROL that you will actually carry."--David E
Since pocket carry is most practical for me, .38 in a snub or 9mm is the most effective caliber. Death ray? No, I have to do my part and get good hits in the right places.

 

[Frozen North]

Handguns are mediocre at best. You best be a good shot or be able to shoot quickly.

Shot placement, not caliber.

Training not hardware.

 

[xXxplosive]

Thanks............but IMO.....I'll take the .45ACP over any 9mm, 10mm, 40S&W and alike. As you said the .45ACP has stopping power. Maybe it doesn't have 14 round capacity but the idea is to Stop The Threat Now, not after the 12th shot fired.

 

[PowerG]

No handgun bullet is 100% effective in stopping a fight immediately, even if shot placement is good. There have been any number of instances of suspects sustaining ultimately fatal wounds, who after being shot returned fire and wounded or killed LEO's. The "Miami Shootout" involving the FBI and the two bank robbers is a good example, both bad guys continuing to resist even after sustaining multiple wounds, including a head shot. Determined people don't always collapse, or run away, when shot-some fight until their last breath.

 

[MaddSkillz]

Absolutely. We've all read the newspaper stories of people getting shot in the torso with a 45 and walking away. If you can walk away, you also possess the ability to stay in the fight. Shot placement is so much more critical than deciding between 9mm, 357, 40 and 45.

So what's the magical shot placement spot to stop a threat immediately?

Everyone's talking shot placement but nobody is giving details. Is it a secret?

 

[Remo223]

shoot and break the pelvis to drop them to the pavement. That usually stops the threat instantly. If they have a gun, they can still shoot from a seated position. You've got to sever the spine above the shoulders to disable arms. Or a head shot.

That's all the choices you have if they are extremely determined to fight to the last breath. The brain continues to function just fine for 7 seconds with no blood supply. A shot through the heart will take twice that long to drain all the blood out. So you have a fully functioning brain and nervous system for 21 seconds or more after a shot through the heart.

If you have a high cap mag, you can shoot repeatedly rapidly. There is a fraction of a second after being struck by a bullet that a person MAY be stunned and not fully functional. The loud noise of a gun also tends to have a brief stunning effect.

 

[shep854]

This is why the middle of the chest has been emphasized as the best target area for a defensive shooter; the heart, major blood vessels and spine are bunched together there. Even though they are behind bone, the chance if a disabling (stopping) wound is very high, and it's a relatively easy target to hit.

 

[scaatylobo]

K-5

The LEO's who have some time under their belts will recall that the center mass of a man sized target was labeled K-5 and when asked where to shoot THE answer was = you guessed it K-5.

I am a retired LEO and D/T and firearms instructor and my 00.02 cents worth is.

ONLY GOOD HITS COUNT,so if you can honestly shoot more than 3 rounds FAST and accurate = and hit a 4 or 5" plate EVERY time from 3 feet to 3 yards,I say your good to go.

No matter what you carry,as long as you carry and practice a reload for that handgun.

The real truth is,can you do it = or are you kidding yourself ?.

Only you know [ or dont know ] that answer.

 

[JQP]

You need stopping power in a CCW. I keep telling everyone this, with all their comments on 9mm, .40S&W, .45ACP and other such silliness.

 

[ChCx2744]

If you aim for anything between the nipples, the BG is most likely gonna know that he ain't welcome. lol. In all honesty, if the between-the-nipples trick doesn't work, stitch your way up north; that'll learn em.

 

[shep854]

Interestingly, a bowling pin almost exactly duplicates the critical target area; center mass for heart & spine. This was one reason for the popularity of pin shooting--if you can consistently make solid hits on pins, the odds of doing so in a self-defense situation naturally go up.

 

[LKB3rd]

In the entire history of gunfighting, there has never been a case where one of the shooters wished he had a smaller gun that held fewer rounds of less powerful ammo.
__________________

I wouldn't be so sure of that. Imagine someone firing a short barrel .357 with no hearing protection. I could see the blast knocking you off of your focus, and the muzzle flip would take skill to quickly back on target.

 

[beeenbag]

What I'd like to see is a Glock26 sized .380, with some serious ammo capacity, as much as can possibly fit without an extended length mag. That would be a beast of a defensive weapon for having acceptable power, high ammo capacity and low recoil due to the size of the firearm.

If you had a glock 26 sized .380 then it would probably hold the same amount of rounds as the 9mm...

.380 is just a short 9mm so the diameter of the case is the same and being as that is the determining factor of capacity I would say you would have a weak 26.

The plus to .380 is you can put it in a smaller frame because of the lower pressure so thats what most manufacturers do.

 

[NMGonzo]

Handguns are mediocre at best. You best be a good shot or be able to shoot quickly.

Shot placement, not caliber.

Training not hardware.

... and diving for cover as fast as you can.

 

[shep854]

Glock does make a .380, but it's "too small" to meet BATFE's import criteria. It's sold in countries where civilian use of 9mm or other "military" calibers is banned.

" * The Glock 25 is a derivative of the Glock 19, adapted to use the .380 ACP (9x17mm Short) cartridge. The .380 models are primarily intended for markets which prohibit civilian ownership of firearms chambered in military calibers. They are not offered in the United States, due to the characteristics of the gun making it unable to pass import restrictions.[55] Due to the relatively low bolt thrust of the .380 ACP cartridge, the pistol features an unlocked breech and operates via straight blowback of the slide. This method of operation required modification of the locking surfaces on the barrel as well as a redesign of the former locking block. The standard magazine capacity of the Glock 25 is 15 rounds.
* The Glock 28 is a .380 ACP subcompact version of the blowback-operated Glock 25, with a standard magazine capacity of 10 rounds. The factory magazine from the Glock 25, with a capacity of 15 rounds, will also function in the Glock 28."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol#.380_ACP