My Thoughts on the FN FAL

[Coal Dragger]

The absolute ignorance presented in just this one line boggles the mind.



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OK, post Vietnam, what major power using the FAL that had the ability to engineer major improvements to the weapon system, and could afford to implement them was fielding the rifle in a conflict lasting more than even 1 year with combat events on an almost daily basis? Answer: None. Not one.

If you want to accuse people of being ignorant, perhaps you should educate yourself before commenting.

 

[MCMXIautomatic]

With respect to the FAL, I know I have said and I believe the rifle is obsolete, and was made obsolete by its creator Fabrique Nationale when they developed the SCAR series. With that said, the design never really had a chance to mature and evolve. Let me explain.

The FAL wasn't fielded by any major military (*cough* United States) that at any point engaged in a prolonged conflict or two, and had both the resources to make technological changes to the platform, and a civilian market for the guns that would also drive innovation. Look at a current M4 carbine, or AR platform rifle or carbine sold to civilians as an example. The modern versions are so much more versatile, refined, reliable, and durable you'd scarcely believe they were the same weapon more or less. Necessity is the driver of a lot of innovation and the prolonged conflict in the Middle East provided necessity to make changes to the AR platform as issued by the military to improve performance and lethality. Getting the fight into an open area where long shots are a necessity, just as urban warfare kicking in doors at night made making changes to the platform mandatory. No longer was an iron sighted carbine or rifle acceptable, we weren't fighting in a jungle where optics had less value etc. Now in fairness a lot of the changes had already been introduced to civilian market guns, such as flat top receivers, and free floating hand guards. Once Afghanistan and Iraq kicked off though it was on like Donkey Kong for developing new solutions for the M4/AR. Advanced free float rails that are easy to mount gadgets on that are actually tough enough for duty issue while still being reasonably light and improving accuracy are a good example. Better triggers as fielded by USSOCOM and made by Bill Geissele that are service grade durable and safe are another. Look at the plethora of combat optics and mounts that are not only easy to install but work as advertised and are just as tough as the dang weapon in a lot of cases. Add to this the demands of the civilian market and you have a highly refined platform, with a plethora of good parts and accessories (along with plenty of dodgy ones too). No other platform can compete with that, talk about a barrier to market entry.

Had the FAL been adopted by Uncle Sam in one of the various calibers offered, I can just about guarantee we'd have all sorts of high speed low drag FAL variants with free floating rails, awesome triggers, and all sorts of good stuff. Necessity would have demanded it. Plus once the weapon gets adopted Uncle Same is loathe to move on to other platforms, he stuck with the M16 even though it had some teething issues and has undergone extensive modification from the original TDP. Even the M14 got hauled out and modified to try to make it not suck, while these efforts failed, it goes to show how stubborn Uncle Sam can be at trying to make things work even when they don't want to. I suspect the FAL would have been more accommodating a design to modernize and upgrade than the M14 for example.

This was a very thoughtful post, and you're absolutely right. It all goes back to the fact that the FAL was never really given a chance the way the AR was, and coupled with the fact that it was never issued in the US military, the level of familiarity and subsequent popularity among Americans has never been anywhere near the same. And just as the AR had some initial problems, these were all remedied in time. All it took was some creativity and innovation over many years to really help the design come into its own, and I believe the same could be done with the FAL if there was any great will to do so. It may not be a match rifle as is, but Brits, Canadians, and other troops who carried it were able to hit a man sized target out to 600 yards or more. And even with combat accuracy and a so-so trigger, there is still a lot of appeal about a rifle that packs enough punch to reliably take a man down with one shot at distance, and can easily penetrate through hard cover.

 

[Acera]

coal dragger, their have not been many wars that fit your little piddly parameters. Now you want to limit it to post Vietnam? LOL, that gun was fighting for a decade and a half before you put that arbitrary date down. Fact, the FAL was fielded by close to 100 countries. The M14 was fielded by what 2?

Israel used it in their numerous wars as a front line weapon, pretty sure that nuclear power is considered 'major'.
Most all of NATO used it as a front line weapon during the Cold War.
Brits fought Arggies both sides armed with FALs, both pretty big deals in world power rankings.
Australia, fairly major power in it's region fielded the FAL for decades, and fought along side the US in Vietnam with it.
Argentina and Brazil, both major players in their region both used/use the FAL.
South Africa, the major power in their region used the FAL, as did Rhodesia when it was a vibrant, prosperous country to defend against Marxism.
Mexico issued them heavily to troops and federal police.
It was used widely in the Libyan revolution and is still seen in service today in Syria.
It was a major player against the AK in the numerous conflicts that still infect Sub-Saharan Africa.
Canada, mentioned a number of times.
Pretty much anyplace a non-communist European power fought, the FAL was there.

Easy to go on and on...............................

Just because it's trigger is not being pulled regularly does not mean it's not doing it's job. List a lot shorter of non-communist countries that have not used it.


Many on this thread has stated that it was a movie or something that first introduced them to the FAL, for me it was this poster. Saw it hanging in a surplus store in Galveston, TX. Had to learn more, did the research and had to have one..........or two.............etc of em'. LOL





One more thing, I agree, The Odd Angry Shot is a hell of a movie.

Bill: [trying to drink a can of beer] I can't find the hole.
Harry: You could if it had hair 'round it.



Harry: It's the poor man, the shi$%-shoveler with the arse out of his pants and two bob in his pocket that makes Australia. Every time trouble starts, there he is, standing like a fool at the recruiting office with his hand out for a rifle, while the rich boys are at home hanging on, waiting for a commission or their fathers to get them into a safe job. And while you're stuck overseas with some poor bastards from the other side, who are just as scared as you are, shooting at you, the rich boys are at home probably down having a bit of a slum or a chop at yer bird.

Rogers: Welcome to Patrol 2-2, specialists in arson, murder and drinking!

Rogers: Hey Harry, we'll stir up the indigenous population when we get there, eh?
Harry: Remember what the man said Rogers. You are the Special Air Service, you are visitors to South Vietnam.
Scott: Better it's over there and not here.
Medic: What do ya mean?
Scott: That we're visitors.
Dawson: Yeah, I can just see my mums face now if old missus Wilson from next door came over for a bit of a natter and sprayed up the place with a seven-point-six-two tracer.
Harry: Scare the Christ out of your flying ducks, wouldn't it?





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[MCMXIautomatic]

coal dragger, their have not been many wars that fit your little piddly parameters. Now you want to limit it to post Vietnam? LOL, that gun was fighting for a decade and a half before you put that arbitrary date down. Fact, the FAL was fielded by close to 100 countries. The M14 was fielded by what 2?

Israel used it in their numerous wars as a front line weapon, pretty sure that nuclear power is considered 'major'.
Most all of NATO used it as a front line weapon during the Cold War.
Brits fought Arggies both sides armed with FALs, both pretty big deals in world power rankings.
Australia, fairly major power in it's region fielded the FAL for decades, and fought along side the US in Vietnam with it.
Argentina and Brazil, both major players in their region both used/use the FAL.
South Africa, the major power in their region used the FAL, as did Rhodesia when it was a vibrant, prosperous country to defend against Marxism.
Mexico issued them heavily to troops and federal police.
It was used widely in the Libyan revolution and is still seen in service today in Syria.
It was a major player against the AK in the numerous conflicts that still infect Sub-Saharan Africa.
Canada, mentioned a number of times.
Pretty much anyplace a non-communist European power fought, the FAL was there.

Easy to go on and on...............................

Just because it's trigger is not being pulled regularly does not mean it's not doing it's job. List a lot shorter of non-communist countries that have not used it.


Many on this thread has stated that it was a movie or something that first introduced them to the FAL, for me it was this poster. Saw it hanging in a surplus store in Galveston, TX. Had to learn more, did the research and had to have one..........or two.............etc of em'. LOL

One more thing, I agree, The Odd Angry Shot is a hell of a movie.

Bill: [trying to drink a can of beer] I can't find the hole.
Harry: You could if it had hair 'round it.



Harry: It's the poor man, the shi$%-shoveler with the arse out of his pants and two bob in his pocket that makes Australia. Every time trouble starts, there he is, standing like a fool at the recruiting office with his hand out for a rifle, while the rich boys are at home hanging on, waiting for a commission or their fathers to get them into a safe job. And while you're stuck overseas with some poor bastards from the other side, who are just as scared as you are, shooting at you, the rich boys are at home probably down having a bit of a slum or a chop at yer bird.

Rogers: Welcome to Patrol 2-2, specialists in arson, murder and drinking!

Rogers: Hey Harry, we'll stir up the indigenous population when we get there, eh?
Harry: Remember what the man said Rogers. You are the Special Air Service, you are visitors to South Vietnam.
Scott: Better it's over there and not here.
Medic: What do ya mean?
Scott: That we're visitors.
Dawson: Yeah, I can just see my mums face now if old missus Wilson from next door came over for a bit of a natter and sprayed up the place with a seven-point-six-two tracer.
Harry: Scare the Christ out of your flying ducks, wouldn't it?





.

Lol, too right! I still need to get one of those posters for myself! It was pretty much the same for me, the history of the Rhodesian Bush War is one of the major reasons for my interest in the FAL.

 

[ECVMatt]

Many on this thread has stated that it was a movie or something that first introduced them to the FAL, for me it was this poster. Saw it hanging in a surplus store in Galveston, TX. Had to learn more, did the research and had to have one..........or two.............etc of em'. LOL




.

All banter aside, I think this thread brings up a good point about the pre-internet days....It is so easy to look up specs, conflicts, contracts, etc. nowadays, but for many of us our first exposure to things like the FAL, Linda, Uzi, and yes, even the AK 47 came from Movies, TV, The Shooter's Bible, Shotgun News, Soldier of Fortune, Krause Publications, Guns and Ammo, print advertisements, many other print publications, and yes even the rifle range.

It was very difficult to learn about these types of firearms in detail. We had to seek out others who had these rifles and learn firsthand. We had to go to gun shops and find mentors or good folks that would share knowledge. It was much different.

Now with the internet, it is much easier to find intricate details about obscure firearms. This tends to create knowledge based experts as opposed to user based experts.

Mark Twain tells us to beware of the man who uses statistics like a drunk uses a light pole, for support rather than illumination. This rings just as true today. I will alway defer to the actual user for information as opposed to the "internet collector" of information.

Rant off, now back to the banter.....

 

[Gordon]

OK, post Vietnam, what major power using the FAL that had the ability to engineer major improvements to the weapon system, and could afford to implement them was fielding the rifle in a conflict lasting more than even 1 year with combat events on an almost daily basis? Answer: None. Not one.

If you want to accuse people of being ignorant, perhaps you should educate yourself before commenting.

Selous Scouts ?

 

[Robert]

Folks, I've deleted a couple posts because of insults. Please remember to attack the argument, not the poster or I will shut this down and issue infractions. I'd rather not go there but that is your call.

 

[MCMXIautomatic]

While we're on the subject, what do you all think about the DSA FALs? I've heard that they are using cast alloy lower receivers now.

 

[Robert]

I've not handled one in a long time so I can't speak to what the lower is made of but the last one I did fiddle with did not appear to be cast.

 

[Prijador]

Cast receivers... I don't know.

You can always go on FALfiles.com - they periodically have group buys in IMBEL receivers - I have two and they are VERY high quality. Then build the rest of the rifle either from DSA parts or from a parts kit.

 

[Sarge]

Well I guess I'll weigh in here, even if a bit late!
I have an FN/FAL and an M14 - Both are the select fire versions. The M14 is flat out a POS on full auto!!!
The FN/FAL on the other hand is as accurate as one could want on FA! Or at least I think so since I can put 3 rd of a 3 rd burst in the chest of a sillouet at 200 yds. I can do the same +1 rd out of 5. Always seem to get a flyer at either 5 or 6.
That being said I also don't see much difference in accuracy between the 2 on semi-auto.
I also find hte FN/FAL a lot more pleasant to shoot!
Sarge

 

[kozak6]

Meh. Transferable M14's are around $18,000. It looks like FAL's are too (if you can find one). I'd rather have a new car, personally. Do any Class III dealers offer financing?

I think the problem is that the milled steel construction makes them too expensive. That keeps them from being popular, as an AR10, PTR, M77, Vepr, etc can be had for $500+ less.

And then if you don't need semiauto, bolt actions are cheaper and more accurate every year, and it's easier to save the brass. Or at least that's what's keeping a semiauto .308 off my list.

 

[Robert]

Well I guess I'll weigh in here, even if a bit late!
I have an FN/FAL and an M14 - Both are the select fire versions. The M14 is flat out a POS on full auto!!!
The FN/FAL on the other hand is as accurate as one could want on FA! Or at least I think so since I can put 3 rd of a 3 rd burst in the chest of a sillouet at 200 yds. I can do the same +1 rd out of 5. Always seem to get a flyer at either 5 or 6.
That being said I also don't see much difference in accuracy between the 2 on semi-auto.
I also find hte FN/FAL a lot more pleasant to shoot!
Sarge

That is so cool. I always wanted a heavy barrel FAL. If I ever get into the Class III world I will get a Lewis Gun first, but an FAL won't be far behind.

 

[salt&battery]

Well I guess I'll weigh in here, even if a bit late!
I have an FN/FAL and an M14 - Both are the select fire versions. The M14 is flat out a POS on full auto!!!
The FN/FAL on the other hand is as accurate as one could want on FA! Or at least I think so since I can put 3 rd of a 3 rd burst in the chest of a sillouet at 200 yds. I can do the same +1 rd out of 5. Always seem to get a flyer at either 5 or 6.
That being said I also don't see much difference in accuracy between the 2 on semi-auto.
I also find hte FN/FAL a lot more pleasant to shoot!
Sarge

one thing about the FAL is it does not work in sub zero weather. the US army knew that and when the M14 was losing out to the FAL they ordered the last tests to be done in an army base in Alaska where the FAL's broke down. the head engineer Saive flew there to try to fix them opening the gas ports causing more problems. after reading that I took mine out at 18 below zero and after a few rounds it fired single shot like a bolt gun . didn't jam but did not cycle adjusting the gas did not work

 

[Clark]

I have built FALs in the 1990s; Brit, Australian heavy barrel, and STG-58.
Looks like I gave all of them away, but three on IMBEL receivers, an STG58 in 1997 and two STG58s in 1999.
I have not shot an FAL in 20 years.
I have not shot any of my Garands in 20 years.
I think I shot a couple of my AR15s 10 years ago.
I just got old and started building bolt actions and falling blocks.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

This was a very thoughtful post, and you're absolutely right. It all goes back to the fact that the FAL was never really given a chance the way the AR was, and coupled with the fact that it was never issued in the US military, the level of familiarity and subsequent popularity among Americans has never been anywhere near the same.

Apropos of nothing I kind of see the AR in that same light. While it's a great platform its success and ubiquity may be a bad thing for semi auto rifles in general. In a way it is like a weed that chokes out all other plants before they can really flower. Again, no knock on the AR (and I have one myself) but I wonder how many other great designs might have flourished if it didn't suck all the oxygen out of the room? True we have other rifles (eg SCAR, Bren 805/806, ACR, Galil, Tavor, AUG, etc) but few of them have achieved the kind of popularity that the AR has, at least in the US.

 

[GBExpat]

I found a pic of the "carbine" that I described in Post#4:

 

[Llama Bob]

In the current environment in the US, the FAL is rendered irrelevant by four factors:

• Cost relative to the AR10
• Problems with optics mounting
• Lack of accuracy
• Lack of interest - why pay more for worse?

 

[Llama Bob]

Apropos of nothing I kind of see the AR in that same light. While it's a great platform its success and ubiquity may be a bad thing for semi auto rifles in general. In a way it is like a weed that chokes out all other plants before they can really flower. Again, no knock on the AR (and I have one myself) but I wonder how many other great designs might have flourished if it didn't suck all the oxygen out of the room? True we have other rifles (eg SCAR, Bren 805/806, ACR, Galil, Tavor, AUG, etc) but few of them have achieved the kind of popularity that the AR has, at least in the US.

The AR's choking them out for very good reason - it's a better rifle. Come up with something that's actually better, and it will have no problem competing. But different isn't enough - it has to be across the board as good or better.

 

[ttarp]

The AR's choking them out for very good reason - it's a better rifle. Come up with something that's actually better, and it will have no problem competing. But different isn't enough - it has to be across the board as good or better.

AR's are chocking other designs out because of price and folks familiarity with the design(which in part links back to price). If your baseline AR cost $1,500, same price range as most non AR semi autos in the same class, you would still probably see a majority of AR's at the range, but you'd see a lot more variety.

 

[Llama Bob]

AR's are chocking other designs out because of price and folks familiarity with the design(which in part links back to price). If your baseline AR cost $1,500, same price range as most non AR semi autos in the same class, you would still probably see a majority of AR's at the range, but you'd see a lot more variety.

Being remarkably inexpensive for a very functional rifle is part of how ARs have become better.

If you want to compete, it's not enough to just make a product. It has to compare favorably to what's already in the market.

 

[444]

I have owned two FALs for about 15 years and have shot them quite a bit. I do like them better than the M14 style rifles or the G3 (and I own two of each of them). That being said, I was never too thrilled with the FAL. I can't speak to combat effectiveness: I have never been in combat and I am pretty sure I never will be; let alone with a FAL. But for the shooting I do and have done; the FAL was never the best option for me.

Today, I am just a recreational shooter. I shoot at flat ranges and the FAL isn't very impressive in the accuracy department. I am sure it is more than accurate enough for a combat rifle, but again, I am not in combat. For years I used to shoot in vintage military rifle matches. For that, the FAL was OK but suffered from the limitation that the rear sight doesn't have enough elevation for the course of fire (we shot out to 800 yards on occasion but not every match). One weekend a month we shot out to 500 meters and I would often use my FAL for that match. But on the other matches I used an M1 because it had much better sights.

Then we get into the fact that I am getting older and am sort of transitioning over to optics because my eyesight isn't what it once was. And IMO, mounting optics on an FAL is sort of a half baked work around solution that doesn't look good (it may work fine, I don't know).

I just took one of my FALs out to the range a couple weeks ago after not having fired it for over five years. It was fun, but I wasn't sorry to put it back in the safe. There is a reason for the AR15's popularity. It isn't an accident.

 

[Sarge]

In the current environment in the US, the FAL is rendered irrelevant by four factors: Cost relative to the AR10 Problems with optics mounting Lack of accuracy Lack of interest - why pay more for worse?

Well, Me thinks I will disagree on most of the above!
Never had anything to do with an AR 10 so know nothing about them.
Since I do not do any "Long" range shooting I have NO need for a scope! If I can see it clearly out to 3 - 400 yds I can hit it! That removes #2 & 3.
I have a definate interest in the FN/FAL (mine has a run fast switch)! I shoot mine as much as my 2 AR 15s, M14 (yes select fire) & M1A combined. Worse than what???

Since you are so much down on the FN/FAL What is your most used rifle? Want a shoot off to see who does better with their choice? Under 400 yds and NO scopes!
Sarge

 

[kb308]

I had a DSA and thought it was great. I personally prefer the longer barrel versions instead of the relatively short one I had however. Man are FAL's loud though!
Are the M14-M1A as reliable as the FAL? I know they are more accurate, but I'm just curious.

 

[salt&battery]

Well, Me thinks I will disagree on most of the above!
Never had anything to do with an AR 10 so know nothing about them.
Since I do not do any "Long" range shooting I have NO need for a scope! If I can see it clearly out to 3 - 400 yds I can hit it! That removes #2 & 3.
I have a definate interest in the FN/FAL (mine has a run fast switch)! I shoot mine as much as my 2 AR 15s, M14 (yes select fire) & M1A combined. Worse than what???

Since you are so much down on the FN/FAL What is your most used rifle? Want a shoot off to see who does better with their choice? Under 400 yds and NO scopes!
Sarge

most guys shoot a 22 at 50 yds with a 20x scope so you will get no challenges lol. I shot my AR 10-15 FAL and M1a at 3-400 yds