Need more elevation in my scope - How do I get it?

[gunsrfun1]

I want to set up my CZ 452 Trainer (.22LR) to shoot POA/POI up to 200 yards. I’m primarily using Wolf Match Target ammo (1050 fps). The scope setup is pretty basic, as shown in the photo below: A Weaver 6.5-20 with adjustable parallax and a basic cross-hair (no holdover marks).

I zeroed at 25 yards and adjusted elevation to get me to the longer ranges. I’m able to shoot POA/POI from 50 feet to 100 yards with no problem, by adjusting the elevation turret. But at 200 yards, I run out of elevation. The Wolf ammo is impacting about 20 inches below POA. (So, I am around 10 MOA short in elevation adjustment, if I understand MOA correctly.)

Interestingly, I tried CCI Mini-Mag 36 gr at 200 yards out of curiosity, and it only impacted at around 5 inches below POA. So I was able to hit a steel gong 12 inches high at that distance by holding at the top of the gong. But I would prefer more precision and less holdover.

Which brings me to my question. Based on my research, it seems I have three options, although I am not crazy about the third one:

1) Buy this 20 MOA base, which fits the CZ’s narrow (11mm) receiver groove. This will build in 20 MOA to my scope. Price: $90.

https://www.egwguns.com/hd-cz-452-453-511-512-3-8-picatinny-rail-20-moa

2) Buy a set of Burris XTR Signature Rings (can adjust up to 40 MOA) for $85 or a set of Zee Rings (can adjust up to 20 MOA) for $45. Both adjust MOA via plastic inserts. Add another $10 for a conversion rail that converts the 11mm groove to handle Weaver rings or Picatinny.

https://www.amazon.com/Burris-420223-Rings-Height-Matte/dp/B00U1AVEY0/ref=sr_1_1?gclid=Cj0KCQjw4uaUBhC8ARIsANUuDjW9C43zK_bhGNVSDVF7Y0tOZCA-9gRO_n7Ow4bdzSu-4MDoGLuN2qcaAoS5EALw_wcB&hvadid=581402648780&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9006759&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=142628337169196678&hvtargid=kwd-321540335926&hydadcr=9660_9895651&keywords=xtr+signature+rings&qid=1654301770&s=sporting-goods&sr=1-1&th=1

https://www.amazon.com/Burris-Optics-Signature-Pos-Align-Inserts/dp/B0002IL19Y/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=2RG7AUKBB30ZO&keywords=burris+zee+rings&qid=1654301960&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=burris+zee+ri,sporting,69&sr=1-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFFNDIxMVdTQldDMUImZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAxMDc5NDMyNVY0UzE3MFZLS1FSJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAxODI3MjMxQ0oyRUVYWUc0WU1IJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

3) I have a Burris 4.5-14 Fullfield E1 scope with holdover marks, but there is no guarantee that the marks will align with any "whole-number" distances, so I think I have ruled out this option.

The pro of the EGW rail is that it’s simple, and I can use any rings I want with it. The possible con is whether 20 MOA will be sufficient for my purposes and still enable me to shoot from 50 feet to 200 yards.

The pro of the XTR rings is that they provide tons of MOA, more than I will need.

What are your thoughts and opinions of these options to solve my problem (assuming they would do so), preferably based on your actual experience? Are there other options I am missing?

I'm new at this stuff, so try to keep your answers at the 6th grade level.

Thanks

 

[SharpDog]

I would get the 20 MOA base. Metal, less parts, buy once cry once

 

[Ru4real]

With what you have, I’d put a sheet metal shim in the back scope ring under the scope. But I don’t like spending money on things with a free work around.

Or, you could buy a 20 MOA rail and mounting hardware.

 

[earplug]

DIP and EGW both make canted scope bases for your needs. I have the DIP on a 455. Most of my friends have the EGW.

 

[LoonWulf]

With what you have, I’d put a sheet metal shim in the front scope ring under the scope. Same dimension L X W as the lower scope ring half.

Or, you could buy a 20 MOA rail and mounting hardware.

Rear ring..... And that seems like an awful. Good way to squish a scope tube to me.

 

[gunsrfun1]

So you are saying 20 MOA will cover me from 50 feet to 200 yards, right? Only asking because I read somewhere that if you have too much cant, you won't be able to zero at the shorter distances. But 20 MOA does seem to be the standard, so I suppose it's not excessive.
Probably not an issue, but just checking before I drop $90.
Thanks

 

[Hartkopf]

With what you have, I’d put a sheet metal shim in the front scope ring under the scope. Same dimension L X W as the lower scope ring half.

Or, you could buy a 20 MOA rail and mounting hardware.

Shouldn’t the shim go under the rear scope ring?

 

[gunsrfun1]

Not gonna shim, but thanks anyway. And yes, it would go under the rear ring, not the front ring.

 

[Ru4real]

Not gonna shim, but thanks anyway. And yes, it would go under the rear ring, not the front ring.

Yes, sorry back ring. Sounds like you knew the answer to your question before you asked. Thanks for the quiz.

 

[Bwana John]

DIP +20 MOA 1 piece base.

 

[gunsrfun1]

The DIP looks interesting (and half the price of the EGW), but it's 25 MOA, and their description says: "However because of the added slope the 25MOA limits how close you can "zero" to about 60 yds with most scopes."

I zeroed at 25 yards and adjusted elevation to get me to the longer ranges. So I think 25 MOA is too much MOA for me.

 

[LoonWulf]

The DIP looks interesting (and half the price of the EGW), but it's 25 MOA, and their description says: "However because of the added slope the 25MOA limits how close you can "zero" to about 60 yds with most scopes."

I zeroed at 25 yards and adjusted elevation to get me to the longer ranges. So I think 25 MOA is too much MOA for me.

Could always just get a scope with more internal adjustment

 

[lightman]

Personally I like the 20 minute rail but a knowledgeable shooting buddy like the Burris rings. Either way should serve you well.

 

[Varminterror]

Effectively, I use 2 or 3 of the options you’re considering on my rifles - together - on all of the 22LR’s I use for anything more than 100yrd shooting, which is most of my 22’s.

Here’s why:

1) 22LR typically has around 17moa of drop by 100yrds, plus ~1.5-2moa for optic height over bore compensation, so a 100yrd zero with 22LR eats up around half of the available adjustment in most scopes (sometimes more than ALL of the available adjustment - cough, Nikon Monarch, cough, cough)… So adding a 20MOA base alone only gets you back near optical center with a 22Lr at your 100yrd zero - in contrast to a centerfire rifle cartridge which might only have around 4moa of absolute compensation at 100yrd zero.

2) SV vs. high speed makes a huge difference in drop. SV tends to hold accuracy better, but it might drop as much as 8-10moa more at 200 than super Sonic stuff, so what ammo you are shooting makes a huge difference in drop compensation.

3) 200 yards is typically somewhere around 15-18moa more past our 100yrd zero, so we have to have 34-40moa available “UP” to reach 200yrds, preferably a bit more, at least… this means you’d have to have an optic with at least 44moa of elevation adjustment just to reach 200yrds if you only use a 20moa base. (Optical center + up 2 for optic height + up 34-40moa for 200yrd absolute drop - 20moa base = up ~22moa from optical center… Which isn’t so difficult to find in many scopes, BUT…

4) Naturally, you’ll likely shoot farther than 200yrds at some point. Reaching to 250yrds requires ~50moa of total “up”, so a scope has to have 100+ MOA available, or needs ~50MOA with 25moa of angled base… at minimum…

5) I personally prefer to have as much usable elevation compensation available as I can get - making use of as much of the scope as I can. So I use 20moa bases by default, plus scopes with a lot of internal elevation adjustment available, and STILL prefer to add Burris rings with additional correction, good for up to a total of 60moa of angle and allowing 80-90moa of usable elevation - getting out to around 400-475 yards before holding over in the reticle.

All of the below 22LR’s are set up to reach at least 300yrds, with a couple able to reach as far as 500 before running out of optic - although the wind has to be pretty favorable to get that far, even on full size ipsc’s.

Ruger Charger Go Wild + EGW 20moa base and Bushnell DMR II with 100moa internal elevation available.

Ruger Charger Talo Edition Stainless + EGW 20moa base & Burris XTR Signature Rings with 40moa inserts + Burris XTR II with 90moa internal elevation


Ruger Charger Talo Edition Stainless with 20moa EGW base + Burris Signature Zee Rings with 20moa inserts + Nikon Buckmaster with 50MOA internal (not enough to make it past ~300 without holding over in the reticle, shown here shooting 325yrds).


Savage Mark II + 20moa Nightforce base (zero offset NF rings) + Bushnell LRHS with ~85moa internal adjustment. Will be swapping this for a Nightforce NX8 with 110moa internal adjustment.


Savage Mark II + Burris Signature Zee rings with 40moa inserts (flat bases) + Bushnell Trophy with 60moa internal available.

 

[gotboostvr]

I'll vote for the rail...

...But here's another option that's free-ish.

Make a target that's larger, and has an aiming point about 10moa above the actual target.

So you'd aim at the top target, and your groups would print at the lower target. It'd give you a good, consistent point of aim which will help groupings.

So imagine a ~3' piece of cardboard. With one sheet of paper towards the top, and one at the bottom with a bullseye on both.

Hold on the top one, print on the bottom one. Change the bottom sheet of paper as needed throughout the range trip.

Just an option. At the very least, it'll work until you get your kit set up.

 

[Skylerbone]

This thread serves as a reminder that no one firearm can do everything inexpensively.

If mine; DIP rail, Burris rings (which I favor more than most) and consider which end of the spectrum you prefer, short or long range. Beyond a certain point, a second rifle is simply easier to have on hand and an 452 American might be better suited to scope duties.

 

[Varminterror]

@Skylerbone - eh, most of the gear I pictured above isn’t terribly expensive*. The optics can be, but also can NOT be. The Bushnell scope on the Savage my son is holding above was only $50, the Nikon Buckmaster above, formerly on the stainless Charger was only $300. My son’s Savage Mark II FV was under $200, and everything in his hands there totals under $400. The Chargers were $275-300, the EGW 20moa rails are $40, Burris Signature Zee rings only $35-50, $15 for the inserts… no, these aren’t competing for best in show with Annie’s and RimX’s, but they’re connecting on target out past 300 yards consistently. All of these can still come back to a 100yrd zero, and only the Burris is stuck such it can’t dial back to 20yrds (and ALL can hold under to shoot anything from 0-300+ yards) with the bottom end magnifications at 3, 3.5, 4.5, 5, and 6x (and soon to change to 2.5x on one of those)…

*To be honest and transparent, I wouldn’t likely have those “expensive scopes” on those rifles if they had been expensive to me: I won that Burris XTR II, had a special group buy for $1000 off on the LRHS so it was only $600, and I won the NX8 which will replace it, so none of those optics pictured cost me more than $300, except the LRHS which was $600 and the DMR II, which I got for a discounted $950.

 

[JDGray]

Not cheap by any means, but an option.
https://www.burrisoptics.com/mounting-systems/rings/xtr-signature-rings

 

[David Hoback]

I would do a the 20moa rail, but I wouldn’t spend $90 on the EGW piece. A Dovetail to Picatinny (11mm to 21mm), is one of the most basic rails out there! Easy to find inexpensive options made from the SAME 6061 many other parts are.(EGW is made from 7075, but it’s a 22..) Shouldn’t pay more than $30 for it.

 

[Varminterror]

By the by, shimming bases is a tried and true method which dates back several decades. It works. No, a guy can’t just slide a piece of pop can under a rear base, or tail end of a 1 piece rail and expect stress-free mounting, but bedding the bases/rail with epoxy to accommodate the shim DOES produce a stress-free, angled base.

I haven’t needed to do shim jobs in several years (except to fill poorly machined bases), since angled bases are largely available these days for most models, AND it doesn’t really help in this instance since we’re looking at a dovetail to picatinny adapter rather than a bolt-on base/rail, but the derision conveyed above about shimming isn’t apt.

 

[Walkalong]

I have a 20 MOA rail on my .22 that I shoot out to 300 with at competitions using a PST Gen II 5-25 and all's well. For 200 yards and in 20 MOA is plenty, and with the right scope 300 isn't an issue

While for 200 yards and in 20 MOA is plenty, and with the right scope 300 isn't an issue, if I had to do it over again I might have gone with 30 MOA for a gun I use out to 300..

 

[JFrank]

Could always just get a scope with more internal adjustment

Yep, plus those mounts are very tall, just saying..

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

FWIW, I met this guy at a local range once -- check out the arrangement he uses for additional elevation:

 

[gunsrfun1]

Thanks all, great info. I am not planning on going beyond 200 yards with this gun. (Really)
Also, remember my previous statement: I want to be able to zero from 25 yards to 200 yards, by adjusting elevation. No holdovers.
And yes, my rings are a bit high, but I need that height that to clear the rear iron sight. (Which I want to keep on the gun.)
Anyway, it looks like I have two feasible options here:
1) Start with the EGW 20 MOA base, and see how it goes. About $80.
OR
2) Start with the Burris XTR signature rings, which provide up to 40 MOA adjustment. About $85, plus $10 for a cheap Chinese (ugh) 11mm-to-Weaver adapter rail from ebay.
Sounds like the Burris gives me a bit more insurance in making sure I can adjust enough elevation. But the EGW is a simpler solution; plus I get to pick my rings.
I'll have to do my typical over-analysis of these choices ....
Thanks again

 

[Varminterror]

@gunsrfun1 - I’d get the Burris rings on a flat base. $60 for the Dip rail and $35 for Signature Zee rings, good for up to 40MOA, getting you to very near optical center at 200yrds. Cheaper than getting the EGW rail at $80 plus a $35 set of rings anyway… don’t have to spend extra on the XTR Signature rings, the more svelte Signature Zee rings hold just fine and offer the same up-to-40mm correction. Two quality products for less cost than one quality product plus one Chinese turd.