New Caliber - 300 AAC Blackout

[Pony Express]

something groundbreaking. like .408 cheytac

the .408 cheytac is no more groundbreaking than this cartridge. there's nothing a .408 will do that a .50BMG (match loadings of course) can't do.

you will have a nice looking rifle with no ammo, get ready to use it as a club or bayonet up

Except the only difference between an AR chambered for .223/5.56 and this is the barrel...which can be had for less than $200, or most users will probably already own.


for the record, I could get on-board with this, with one condition:
It must be substantially cheaper than 6.8 (preferably below $.50/round for GOOD stuff-not steel cased russian mystery-metal cartridges)

 

[GunTech]

The standard round for 300 AAC BLACKOUT is 123 grain and duplicates the 7.62x39 ballistics - which is by far the most successful assault rifle cartride of all time. And outside of combat, for LE and self defense, it has more energy than 5.56mm at the most common shooting ranges.

What about over-penetration? One of the reason the 5.56 has supplanted the 9mm carbine for LE use is that the latter (9mm) has more penetration in urban environments typical of LE operations. The same would be true of HD use. I don't want a round flying through several wall and killing the neighbor down the block.

And as far as military actions, we know from experience that ball 7.62x39 is actually not so lethal compared with 5.56x45 ball. The former's 'success' was certainly helped by the reliability of the rifle that fired it, as well as the fact the now defunct Soviet Union gave away train car loads of rifles and ammunition.

I can see a role for this cartridge, but I don't think it is the panacea some do. Yes, it may have Remington's backing, but so did rounds like the 260. The 6.8 is now a legitimate cartridge, but compared to the 5.56, it is a niche round.

As long as we are limited to the mag length of the M16, and the same bolt thrust/working pressure, we are only trading weight and velocity.

I've killed deer with 5.56 and 6.8 and frankly, I couldn't see any difference. Put the shot in the vital area, and it goes down.

The principle concern I have is that Remington will support this for a short time, and if it doesn't sell enough, it will go to the back burner. Then you have a limited source of commercial loadings, and you'll have to handload to get any decent bullet selections.

Something like the 6.5 grendel.

BTW, what are the exact differences between this round that the 30 Remington AR? Another new AR round that was supposed to have the backing of Remington.

 

[Zak Smith]

BTW, what are the exact differences between this round that the 30 Remington AR? Another new AR round that was supposed to have the backing of Remington.

A cursory look at both cartridges yields obvious answers.

 

[GunTech]

I get the dimensional and performance differences, but rsilver has suggested on another forum that this cartridge is not a replacement for the 30 Remington AR. So Remington is going to be backing two competing 30 caliber cartridges for the AR-15 platform?

I've no doubt that some will adopt the new round, but does anyone think this will become anything more than a niche round. Is there going to be commercial ammo available at the local gun shop?

Essentially, this seems like a round that duplicates the performance of the 7.62x39 in a proprietary case but is likely to be several times more expensive. It doesn't require a new bolt or special magazines, but these are one time costs, while ammunition is an ongoing expense.

As a suppressed round, it is similar to 300 whisper but is non-proprietary. This is useful for those who shoot suppressed ARs, but that a pretty small percentage of AR shooters. I can see the appeal for a suppressor manufacturer.

The round has certainly go a lot of buzz right now. I'll be curious to see where it is a year from now. Remington certainly has a history with helping to bring out new rounds, then ignoring them.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I get the dimensional and performance differences, but rsilver has suggested on another forum that this cartridge is not a replacement for the 30 Remington AR. So Remington is going to be backing two competing 30 caliber cartridges for the AR-15 platform?

Given the backing Remington has put into the .30rar and assuming slightly less effort put into this third party round this new chambering cant possibly fail......wait...I mean can't possibly NOT fail.

Can you say .41AE?

 

[rsilvers]

AAC and Remington are working together - that is part of what is important. The full power loads won't just be in non expanding bullets like Russian military ammo, but also in hunting and LE ammo. Here are the loads being developed:

123 MC
220 subsonic
LE Expanding
Military Barrier Blind Optimal Penetration
Proof
Dummy

 

[longdayjake]

Hasn't it already been decided that the AR/m16 does fine at close range with .223? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[rsilvers]

Can you say .41AE?

.41 AE was good but made no sense once 40 S&W came out.
Likewise, .222 was very good but made no sense once .223 came out.

So I don't think the analogy is correct unless you feel 300 AAC BLACKOUT will make no sense once XXX comes out.

A lot of it will have to do with price, and the price will be lower than 6.8 SPC.

 

[rsilvers]

Hasn't it already been decided that the AR/m16 does fine at close range with .223? Seems like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

.223 is good. 9mm is good for handguns also, but some people want alternatives. Some don't.

 

[GunTech]

rsilver, while I appreciate the effort you guys are making in bringing a new round for the AR to market, i don;t think having Remington's support or backing means much. As noted, they are also bringing the 30 Remington AR to market.

The 30 Remington is, I gather, meant to appeal to shooters who want to hunt with the AR, without going to an AR-10 sized platform. In that role, the 30 Remington AR is superior to the 300 AAC Blackout.

Another role for the 300 AAC is as a cheaper alternative to the 6.8. Since Remington was a big supporter of the 6.8, and still manufactures ammunition, I don't see why we should expect 300 AAC ammo to be significantly cheaper. Unless Remington plans on completely abandoning 6.8.

As an alternative to 7.62x39, I don;t see how one can compete on the basis of cost - which seems to be one of the major reasons for having a 7.62x39 upper in the first place. Cost of ammo seems to be a big factor in the rising popularity of 5.45x39 ARs.

So really we are left with the 300 AAC as a non-proprietary 300 whisper - a round that has fairly specialized applications.

I may be missing something here, but as someone who was an early adopter of both 6.8 and 6.5 grendel, I find it hard to buy into the hyper of yet another AR round which is at best an incremental improvement over the existing option.

 

[rsilvers]

I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.

 

[68wj]

I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.

Sorry, but I can only assume they are introductory prices. Granted, 5.56 brass and 7.62 bullets are readily available and relatively cheap, but putting them together is a whole 'nuther animal. How many other rounds has Remington "backed" only to back off once they didn't take off? 6.8 Rem SPC and .30 RAR come to mind specifically for the AR platform. Neither has been abandoned but both are growing in their capabilities only due to independent efforts.

Not saying that I won't be looking at the 300 BLK in a few years, but forgive my skepticism now when I hear praise that it is being backed by Remington and will be cheaper than 6.8.

 

[rsilvers]

I take responsibility for decisions that get made by AAC for 300 AAC BLACKOUT. I can only tell you what our plans are for this cartridge, not 30 AR or 6.8 SPC.

 

[68wj]

i take responsibility for decisions that get made by aac for 300 aac blackout. I can only tell you what our plans are for this cartridge, not 30 ar or 6.8 spc.

ten-fowar

 

[R.W.Dale]

.41 AE was good but made no sense once 40 S&W came out.
Likewise, .222 was very good but made no sense once .223 came out.

So I don't think the analogy is correct unless you feel 300 AAC BLACKOUT will make no sense once XXX comes out.

A lot of it will have to do with price, and the price will be lower than 6.8 SPC.

As will performance! which is key to remember as today the SPC's bread and butter is hunters not operators.

The problem with this analogy is the 300AAC's 40S&W and .223 is already out and has been for over half a century. What you've come up with is a .30TC for the ar15 platform

There simply isn't THAT many folks upset with 7.62x39's performance in the AR platform and there sure isn't that much of a suppressed subsonic market, frankly I don't know of anyone who has a suppressor who Doesn't reload anyway. I doubt your ammo costs are going to be competitive with steel cased fodder from the exSoviet union either.

Yes this cartridge uses a standard bolt, mags and a common case. But you know what? This makes it really easy to reload for so folks don't have to buy ammo from you.

I really and truly wish you the best of luck with this as more choice is great!! Heck I shoot a SPC 30 caliber wildcat in my AR, all I'm saying is that you might not want to quit your day job at this point.

 

[rsilvers]

Something like 15% of the shooting public reloads.

I went down the 7.62x39 path a few times. I have a Colt rifle. Jammed too much due to the case taper in the mags. And a few years ago, I wanted to build a suppressed system. I said to myself "Self: Why do 300 Whisper(R) when I can just use 7.62x39 and shoot cheap ammo supersonic and handload subsonic ammo?"

I build a 10 inch rifle, full auto, and suppressed.

My bolts lasted just a few hundred rounds each. I tried every magazine someone said they got to work, and did not have much luck.

I then bought a Special Weapons lower which could take real AK mags. I was sure that was the answer to making it feed, even though it was dedicated and not really ideal.... Well, not so much due to the hassle. It required that you mill the bottom of the bolt carrier to clear the magazine feed lips. So I did that modification. It did work with the magazines, but there was still the bolt breaking issue.

I tried, and gave up. 7.62x39 is just not compatible with ARs.

No, the ammo won't be priced like steel cased imported ammo. It will be brass-cased ammo prices.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Something like 15% of the shooting public reloads.

But what YOU gotta figure out is what percent of SBR/supressor shooters reload. I'll guarantee that your market isn't 85% OF THE SHOOTING PUBLIC


I know you guys get on these forums and go to your meets and in the process it APPEARS as though there are a great number of similar minded shooters out there. But in reality you're an infinitesimally small clique among the much larger shooting community.

You must remember that! You will NEVER survive relying on enthusiasts.


If you want to WIN you don't need to worry about creating another 300fireball/wisper/300-221/7.62x40mm/300aac. You need figure out how to bottle 308 performance into the AR15


My 7.62x39 ar ran fine, but unlike your taken to the absolute limit machine mine was a nice normal 20" A2 being fed from 10rd mags.

 

[InkedIan]

rsilvers, is there an ETA on the scope?

 

[InkedIan]

Same question. You still alive Robert?

 

[rsilvers]

Probably have cams by the Shot Show that work on Leupold with 1/2 MOA elevation.

 

[Zanad]

any updates rsilvers?

 

[rsilvers]

http://www.silencertalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=128&t=64797

 

[rsilvers]

Subsonic ammo available now.

Jeremy Powell
Bulls-Eye Indoor Range & Gun Shop
221 W Crogan Street
Lawrenceville, GA 30046
Phone: (770) 963-6556
Fax: (770) 963-8922
www.bullseyeindoorrange.com

E-Mail: [email protected]

 

[rsilvers]

 

[twofourthree73]

I am project lead on 300 AAC BLACKOUT. We have Remington's support, and you will know ammo prices this month.

Any word on prices?