New Caliber - 300 AAC Blackout
- Thread starter OnPointFirearms
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Ok I'm obviously a late comer on this. From all that I've read I'm with others here this cartridge is a solution to a non-existing problem. The only military application that this cartridge will ever have will be in suppresed arms which is highly limited. The only soldiers that will have a need for this will be those that fall under SOCOM that is it. I feel fully qualified in stating that as I am a current active duty soldier with multiple deployments under my belt and over 10 years in service. We have never at any time used supressed weapons or were we issued such.
Since Rem is backing this I went to their website and got the BC value for the 123gr Mc bullet (.266). I used the BC rating for the 123gr bullet as loaded in the .30 AR as I'm sure they will load the same in the .300 Black Out. I then ran the numbers through the a ballistics calculator. I used this bullet weight because if this cartridge was going to have any military application outside of suppresed arms this would be the most logical choice. I used the velocity right off of the web site (Black outs') and wanted to see how the trajectory would trace for the standard BSZ of 300 yards. Here are the results
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2315 2162 2014 1739 1493 1287 1131
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1464 1276 1108 826 609 452 349
Trajectory (300 yd. zero) -1.5 4.5 8.6 10.1 0.0 -25.8 -72.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.6 7.1 17.0 32.4 53.5
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -8.6 -8.2 -4.8 0.0 6.2 13.9
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.75 1.57 3.37 5.43 7.74 10.22
Look at the trajectory of this ballistic dud it is +8.6" @ 100yd and still +10" @ 200 yd for our standard 300 yards BSZ
Take note of the wind drift too. IMHO either the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would make a much better military round overall. Both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel will have a substantially flatter trajectory and IMHO greater terminal performance on target. They also have the added benefit of being a more practical hunting cartridge for medium sized large game as well.
As far as cost of ammo its to early to know for sure but so far it's not looking to promising, http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...&categoryId=21162&categoryString=653***690***
Who knows maybe the lighter 123gr will be cheaper but I'm not holding my breath.
Since Rem is backing this I went to their website and got the BC value for the 123gr Mc bullet (.266). I used the BC rating for the 123gr bullet as loaded in the .30 AR as I'm sure they will load the same in the .300 Black Out. I then ran the numbers through the a ballistics calculator. I used this bullet weight because if this cartridge was going to have any military application outside of suppresed arms this would be the most logical choice. I used the velocity right off of the web site (Black outs') and wanted to see how the trajectory would trace for the standard BSZ of 300 yards. Here are the results
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2315 2162 2014 1739 1493 1287 1131
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1464 1276 1108 826 609 452 349
Trajectory (300 yd. zero) -1.5 4.5 8.6 10.1 0.0 -25.8 -72.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.6 7.1 17.0 32.4 53.5
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -8.6 -8.2 -4.8 0.0 6.2 13.9
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.75 1.57 3.37 5.43 7.74 10.22
Look at the trajectory of this ballistic dud it is +8.6" @ 100yd and still +10" @ 200 yd for our standard 300 yards BSZ
Take note of the wind drift too. IMHO either the 6.8 SPC or the 6.5 Grendel would make a much better military round overall. Both the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel will have a substantially flatter trajectory and IMHO greater terminal performance on target. They also have the added benefit of being a more practical hunting cartridge for medium sized large game as well. As far as cost of ammo its to early to know for sure but so far it's not looking to promising, http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...&categoryId=21162&categoryString=653***690***
Who knows maybe the lighter 123gr will be cheaper but I'm not holding my breath.
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The problem is that 5.56mm does not work well in short barrels and 7.62x39 does not work well in ARs.
A good military application is CQB and PDWs. As for suppressors - before the 1990s, the use of body armor was highly limited. Things are changing.
I think SOCOM is important.
Same bullet, but the 30 AR is a 24 inch barrel. With 300 AAC BLACKOUT from a 16 inch barrel, the BC is 0.251.
Yes, they have a flatter trajectory and are better for long range use. But they also require special magazines, a special bolt, have lower capacity, and cost more for ammo. So it depends on the goal. 300 AAC BLACKOUT is not a long range round. It is good for hunting though. If you would shoot a deer with a 4 inch 357 Magnum at contact distance, then 300 AAC BLACKOUT gives that energy at out to about 400 yards, depending on the rifle barrel length.
You are linking to the Sierra MatchKing ammo. 308 with MatchKings retails for about $29 a box so $22 MSRP is a low price.
300 AAC BLACKOUT 123 grain ammo is $12.99 a box MSRP, and there is a dealer already selling it for $11.50 a box.
This is a mute point as the common issues weapon is the M4A1 nor is DOD looking for 7.62x39 performance from the AR platform. If that were the case they wouldn't have spent so much $$ in R&D for the M855A1 round. Or they would have adopted the 6.8 SPC or something similar a long time ago if the need was there.
Again the M4 chambered in 5.56 fills both roles very well and as a added benefit shoots flatter. At no time did I or my soldiers notice the 5.56 lacking during CQB use. As for suppressors if the need for them is in such great demand then why isn't the big Army issueing them? Body armor is a far greater need than are suppressors. DOD likes to keep things easy on the logistics side of the house as well. It is easy when all soldiers have to worry about is 5.56, 5.56 link, 7.62 118LR, 7.62 link (M80) 9mm .50 cal, and 40mm. It is simple and there is commonality when in a fire fight and you need to cross load.
I never said they weren't, they are a huge asset and there is no denying that.
So the down range performance and resulting trajectory is going to be even worse thats good to know.
I wouldn't use this cartridge on game regardless as it does not use bullets with a high enough SD IMHO. Yes it can use a 150gr bullet which has a SD of .226 however it launches said bullet to 2,000fps - 2,100fps which will vary upon BBL length. That is worse performance than what I can get with my 30-30 using the same bullet weight. On top of that I have the ability to use 160gr Hornady LE, 170gr and 190gr ammunition. Anything over 150gr in the .300 AAC is pointless for hunting medium sized large game due to limited case capacity. So I still say that this cartridge is a solution for non existing problem
I am unsure why you are framing this round as only useful if it can replace the M4 with 5.56mm. The 6.8 and 6.5 cannot replace an M4 with 5.56mm without compromise in some areas. It depends on the specific use.
As for why the Army is not issuing suppressors, they are starting to. The XM2010 rifle has it as standard equipment.
As for hunting performance - it sounds like you are concerned about penetration. You can tune that with bullet design. Solid copper, bonded, or simply thicker jackets.
Bill Wilson has already fired 15 shots at game and had 15 kills, with no animal moving more than 15 yards and no animal needing a second shot. A 130 TSX has plenty of penetration - over 20 inches in 10% gel and hunters report exit wounds.
Your 30-30 is not an AR. Plenty of people want to hunt with their AR, and some states require 30 caliber or larger.
As for why the Army is not issuing suppressors, they are starting to. The XM2010 rifle has it as standard equipment.
As for hunting performance - it sounds like you are concerned about penetration. You can tune that with bullet design. Solid copper, bonded, or simply thicker jackets.
Bill Wilson has already fired 15 shots at game and had 15 kills, with no animal moving more than 15 yards and no animal needing a second shot. A 130 TSX has plenty of penetration - over 20 inches in 10% gel and hunters report exit wounds.
Your 30-30 is not an AR. Plenty of people want to hunt with their AR, and some states require 30 caliber or larger.
TexasPatriot.308
Member
exactly what we need...another caliber that existing calibers can already perform like... when the SHTF, proven long time calibers are the only ones that are gonna do you any practical use.
SharpsDressedMan
member
If I were going into battle with an AR platform rifle that had been set up to be reliable for a .300 Whisper type cartridge (I'm giving the recognition to the Whisper, as the AAC B/O is just a close variant of it), then I would feel that I was very well armed. I had the opportunity to own and wring out such a platform about 8 years ago, and the resulting rifle and cartridge were part of a complete package: basic Bushmaster AR carbine converted to .300 Whisper, with AWC Spectrum 90 suppressor, Laser Devices MR-2 IR laser (mounted under the freefloat tube handguard), and a Trijicon Reflex NSN sight on the flattop. It was not select fire, but the performance was there. We loaded supersonic loads that pushed 125 or 150gr. bullets at peak velocities permissible with the Whisper round (consult your local reloading books). The gun functioned perfectly, and accuracy was subminute with 125gr Nolser BT's from the 1-8" twist. We also loaded and used subsonics with 220gr RN and BTHP bullets, and it was very impressive at distances out to 200 yards, and, with proper optics, capable of consistent hits to 400 or so yards. QD lever mounts allowed changing from the Reflex to modified scopes with what I'll call "Whisper Dots", which had greater spreads than mil-dots to accomodate the high arc trajectory/drop of the subsonic rounds. At night, with the use of night vision goggles, the IR laser or Reflex allowed basic point and shoot easily in total darkness outdoors, making it possible to do headshots in the dark, from the waist, if desired. Had it been combat, unless the enemy had night vision, they would never know what hit them (Note: the IR laser WILL give away one's position to anyone with night vision, but the Reflex could be employed in an instance where you believe the enemy has NVG's, etc, and it does NOT light up the user to the enemy). If I were a soldier headed for the Mideast or Afghanistan, and I could bring my own equipment, I would sell everything I own and take something like mentioned above. For what a sytem like that might give up to another weapons system, it more than makes up for in flexibility and it's ability to dominate the night with a silent round that has more retained energy at 400 yards than the .45 auto has at the muzzle.
Shawn Dodson
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I'm probably one of the most skeptical people around when it comes to new cartridges and terminal performance.
When I first learned about .300 BLK I was extremely skeptical and questioned its niche role. As I investigated further I found it extremely appealing to me as I could turn one of my M4 carbines into a fast-handling general-purpose .30 caliber brush gun with just a barrel swap. I plan to purchase a .300 BLK 16" barrel, a set of reloading dies and whatever propellant I need to achieve the performance I want.
Brass won't be a problem because I can form .223 brass to .300 BLK.
This looks like its gonna be very fun cartridge for me to play with.
When I first learned about .300 BLK I was extremely skeptical and questioned its niche role. As I investigated further I found it extremely appealing to me as I could turn one of my M4 carbines into a fast-handling general-purpose .30 caliber brush gun with just a barrel swap. I plan to purchase a .300 BLK 16" barrel, a set of reloading dies and whatever propellant I need to achieve the performance I want.
Brass won't be a problem because I can form .223 brass to .300 BLK.
This looks like its gonna be very fun cartridge for me to play with.
What other platform is as quiet as an MP5-SD but yet penetrates soft armor and cover (including utility poles) while being 2-3 times as accurate as either an MP5 or MP7 and has 20% more energy than 5.56mm without giving up the 30 round mag capacity?
One of your big selling points about this platform is using a supprresor. Yes the Army does issue supprresors to snipers and that is a specialized weapon for a specific task. I'm talking about your average everyday Infantryman. We do not get issued supprresors nor will we as it is not needed. If it is then we incorporate our snipers. In that role the .300 AAC has nothing on a M24 or a M110 which is what I'd rather see our snipers using vs your .300 AAC.
Now lets talk about hunting. Why on earth would I want to spend more $$ on ammo using designer bullets for deer hunting, when plain ol' soft points will get it done for cheaper....? Especially in these harder economic times it sure is not this guy.
Anyway I in good faith am trying to give you and your product the benfit of doubt. I looked at the ballistcs for the TSX bullet fired from the 16" bbl. On the web page provided at the begining of this thread. I used the velocity given for the 110gr TSX and the Hornady 130gr bullet for the same weight TSX 2086fps.
I used a 200 yard zero for both and here is what I got.
110gr TSX BC .264
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2233 2082 1937 1667 1430 1235 1094
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1218 1058 916 678 499 372 293
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.2 3.9 0.0 -16.5 -50.3 -106.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.8 7.5 18.1 34.3 56.2
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.2 -3.7 0.0 5.3 12.0 20.4
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.81 1.67 3.59 5.77 8.19 10.74
130gr TSX BC .340
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2086 1973 1863 1657 1471 1308 1176
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1256 1123 1002 792 624 494 399
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.5 4.3 0.0 -17.0 -50.2 -103.8
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.5 6.2 14.8 27.6 44.9
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.8 -4.1 0.0 5.4 12.0 19.8
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.69 1.41 2.98 4.70 6.58 8.58
Sheeesh +3.9" and +4.3" at 100 yards for a 200 yard zero no thanks.
When compared to these options I'm feeling less than impressed.
Expensive designer monolithic bullet option.
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-140-gr-monoflex-Leverevolution/
Then of course there is the original which averages 2350fps out of my 20" 336A. http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
Or I can use my preferred load which is the 150gr Federal Fusion which is cheaper than the above Hornady products. Yet still gives better performance in the hunting field vs the .300 AAC, same with the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 grendel.
BTW I would like to know what states prohibit the the use of calibers such as the .243, various 7mm cartridges, .270 Win, and the 6.5x55, and the like as that is a new one to me.
Now lets talk about hunting. Why on earth would I want to spend more $$ on ammo using designer bullets for deer hunting, when plain ol' soft points will get it done for cheaper....? Especially in these harder economic times it sure is not this guy.
Anyway I in good faith am trying to give you and your product the benfit of doubt. I looked at the ballistcs for the TSX bullet fired from the 16" bbl. On the web page provided at the begining of this thread. I used the velocity given for the 110gr TSX and the Hornady 130gr bullet for the same weight TSX 2086fps.
I used a 200 yard zero for both and here is what I got.
110gr TSX BC .264
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2233 2082 1937 1667 1430 1235 1094
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1218 1058 916 678 499 372 293
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.2 3.9 0.0 -16.5 -50.3 -106.9
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.8 7.5 18.1 34.3 56.2
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.2 -3.7 0.0 5.3 12.0 20.4
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.81 1.67 3.59 5.77 8.19 10.74
130gr TSX BC .340
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 2086 1973 1863 1657 1471 1308 1176
Energy (ft.-lb.) 1256 1123 1002 792 624 494 399
Trajectory (200 yd. zero) -1.5 2.5 4.3 0.0 -17.0 -50.2 -103.8
Wind Drift (inches) 0.0 0.4 1.5 6.2 14.8 27.6 44.9
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -4.8 -4.1 0.0 5.4 12.0 19.8
Wind Drift (moa) 0.00 0.69 1.41 2.98 4.70 6.58 8.58
Sheeesh +3.9" and +4.3" at 100 yards for a 200 yard zero no thanks.
When compared to these options I'm feeling less than impressed.
Expensive designer monolithic bullet option.
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-140-gr-monoflex-Leverevolution/
Then of course there is the original which averages 2350fps out of my 20" 336A. http://www.hornady.com/store/30-30-Win-160-gr-FTX-LEVERevolution/
Or I can use my preferred load which is the 150gr Federal Fusion which is cheaper than the above Hornady products. Yet still gives better performance in the hunting field vs the .300 AAC, same with the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 grendel.
BTW I would like to know what states prohibit the the use of calibers such as the .243, various 7mm cartridges, .270 Win, and the 6.5x55, and the like as that is a new one to me.
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SharpsDressedMan
member
The Army (or any branch of the military) has not yet figured out that ALL small arms ought to have suppressors built into the weapon design. Sure the Army doesn't (yet) issue suppressors.........but they should. If one has not yet discovered the NEED for suppressors, well, I guess one just doesn't shoot very much...........................
Shawn Dodson
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Then don't. Drive-on with your Marlin 30-30 and don't look back.
SharpsDressedMan
member
I think the question is: Is this new cartridge "worthy"? I say, "Yes." Whether or not it ever gets adopted by the military, who cares? We are not going to be the ones who evaluate it or adopt it FOR the military, but if it gains wide civilian acceptance and use, and if it attracts police, security, and para-military (yeah, I fall into the "used-to-be's" & "wannabe's" categories, too). My brief military service, and 20 years of former police service qualify me to be at least "an interested party", as I often buy such weapons, and use them for what I have a desire to. 
If this cartridge and weapons for it serve their owners and users well, who is to say it is wrong for them? Maybe the military procurement people will take notice. Stranger things have happened.
If this cartridge and weapons for it serve their owners and users well, who is to say it is wrong for them? Maybe the military procurement people will take notice. Stranger things have happened.Mag said:
123 grain ammo has only been out since Thursday and what was made is already sold out - at least to dealers, but Midway will have 123 grain ammo next week. AcuSport has a bunch on the way. Over 400,000 more rounds will be made in January, and then by Fed or March about 1.25 million will have been made.
300aacblackout.com
The following companies have announced products:
AAC - uppers, rifles, and ammunition.
Barnes Bullets - bullets
Black Hole Weaponry - barrels.
Bushmaster Firearms - uppers and rifles.
BWE Firearms - rifles, uppers, and suppressors.
Delta Company Arms - rifle
DPMS
Forster - reloading dies.
Noveske - rifles and uppers.
Pacific Tool and Gauge - reamers and gauges
Raven Armament Company - ammo and uppers
Remington - ammunition.
Selph Arms LLC - barrels, uppers, and rifles.
Spike's Tactical - uppers and rifles.
Umlaut Industries - 300 BLK caliber marked Rifles, Upper and Lowers. 16" and 10" Factory Title II.
Wilson Combat - rifles, hunting and self defense ammunition.
A lot of people want to hunt with their AR rather than a lever action. There are states which require at least 25 caliber.
336A - Those were not max velocities - those were down-range velocities at impact. The 110 VMAX does 3450 fps from a 16 inch barrel from 300 BLK.
Another nice thing about this cartridge - it can make 320+PF for 3-gun shooting in barrels as short as 9 inches. So people who have been using an AR10 to make the Heavy Metal requirements can do it with this in a standard AR.
336A - Those were not max velocities - those were down-range velocities at impact. The 110 VMAX does 3450 fps from a 16 inch barrel from 300 BLK.
Another nice thing about this cartridge - it can make 320+PF for 3-gun shooting in barrels as short as 9 inches. So people who have been using an AR10 to make the Heavy Metal requirements can do it with this in a standard AR.
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I have been fascinated by that small capacity .30 cartridge for many years, and wish AAC success in this new venture. Sounds like they have done their homework and I hope it pays off big.
I may not need such a cartridge, but I'm well past the need stage anyway. If it finds traction in the marketplace, it will sell many new uppers and silencing devices. That helps to keep our producers busy, and that's good for shooters generally. Being cheap probably isn't a good reason for picking up another gun, but there's no denying the fun I've had with my SKS, either.
If it someday provides a useful tool for our warriors, even in a limited role, it has my unqualified support.
I may not need such a cartridge, but I'm well past the need stage anyway. If it finds traction in the marketplace, it will sell many new uppers and silencing devices. That helps to keep our producers busy, and that's good for shooters generally. Being cheap probably isn't a good reason for picking up another gun, but there's no denying the fun I've had with my SKS, either.
If it someday provides a useful tool for our warriors, even in a limited role, it has my unqualified support.
jrumsey
Member
I would like to know if this cartridge has been adopted by SAAMI or just submitted at this time? Who else besides Remington is or will be producing the 300 AAC Blackout Ammo? I still remember how Remington dropped the ball with the 6.8 SPC when it first came out, so forgive me for being a little worried that they might end up doing the same with the 300 BLK.
I have two AR-15's chambered for 30 caliber variants based on the 5.56x45mm case the 7.62x40mm and the 7.62ARk (7.62X36.75mm). So for me to consider the 300 Blackout, it would be entirely based on the availability of factory ammo.
Joe
I have two AR-15's chambered for 30 caliber variants based on the 5.56x45mm case the 7.62x40mm and the 7.62ARk (7.62X36.75mm). So for me to consider the 300 Blackout, it would be entirely based on the availability of factory ammo.
Joe
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