New Speer .22mag ammo for self defense

[RedRaider3]

I know I am opening up a can of worms, but my wife wants a Taurus or Smith .22mag snub nose revolver for CC.

Let me start from the beginning. I wanted my wife to learn to shoot; I started her on my Ruger single six 22lr out on a farm I own. She liked the low recoil, the fact that it was a "cowboy gun" (Her grandfather was a cowboy on the fabled 6666 ranch in Guthrie, Texas until he died), and the simplicity of it. She then shot my Taurus 24/7 .40 S&W and said it kicked too much and she wasn't strong enough to rack the slide to load it. I erroneously thought "Well she needs something with some bite, so I will just load her up with a Taurus millennium pro in .40 S&W and it will get her out of any trouble if she needed it." She never liked to shoot it because she still was unable to rack the slide on the pistol, so I sold it and bought the Beretta Tomcat in .32ACP with the tip up barrel, so she could load it. I know .32ACP is nowhere near the ballistics of a .40 S&W, but I subscribe to the idea that "the first rule of a gunfight is to bring a gun to the fight", so I figured the .32ACP was better than nothing.

So, now we have this .32ACP; we were going to the range twice a month (not as often as we should) and the last time we went she held her grip to high on the .32ACP and the gun "bit" her hand. Now she is reluctant to shoot it. It looked like a barely visible scratch to me, but I want her to want to shoot so I have not questioned it.

One day we were driving past a local gun store here in McAllen and she said she wanted to stop to look at some revolvers. I immediately thought about a Taurus or Smith chambered in .327 federal mag and I would let her practice with .32 H&R or .32 S&W and carry with .327 federal mag ammo or a snub nosed .357 using .38's and .357's, respectively, or a Sig P238. Then I remembered the conundrum I was in with the .40 S&W Taurus millennium pro, so I said "I will let her pick something out without any comment from me." So she looked at a Sig P238, a Ruger LCP, a S&W Bodyguard .380, a Ruger LC9, a lady smith, and a S&W 351PD in .22 mag.- which she loved. She asked me if that would suit me, I asked her if it would suit her more than the P238 or the lady smith? She said yes, so we opted to look for a Taurus 941 and swap out the rubber grips for some nice looking laminate wood ones, as it would be cheaper than the Smith 351PD.

I am going to borrow a friend’s .38 S&W snub nose (not sure of the model) for my wife to try, and I have thought of a Taurus 731 in .32 H&R but I worry about it being "Ultra light" and kicking too much for her, but any other suggestions for a recoil sensitive lady's carry gun would be appreciated. Also I am curious about the new gold dot ammunition from Speer in .22mag for self defense (http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...-22-winchester-magnum-self-defense-loads.html, http://www.speer-ammo.com/#winmag) and it's effectiveness. Thank you for the input!

 

[dennis228]

Oh yes you will open a can of worms, but to your point, you are wise in trying to find something she can shoot with confidence and comfort. My steel S&W 36 snubbie with standard pressure Hornady 38 special CD ammo is very easy to shoot, fairly low recoil and accurate. It will get the job done.
If you can find one, a S&W 431PD 6 shot J frame in 32 H&R magnum is a fine shooter with modest recoil and with performance similar to 380 or with Buffalo Bore 32 H&R it is on par with 38+P. It will get the job done.
Before anyone discounts the 22 magnum snubs, take a look at Brassfetcher.com and view the ballistic results from the tests on a Taurus 22 Mag. snub.* 22 Mag penetrates well but usually doesnt expand much.* The new Hornady and Speer 22 WMR loads are interesting but I bet the Winchestet FMJ will do as well for penetration. IMO it will get the job done up close.

Good luck and happy shooting.

 

[El Mariachi]

Fwiw, I've been looking for Hornady's new CriticalDefese round that they where bragging about near the beginning of the year. And that was supposed to hit the market by March. But it's still not available (as of a week or so ago). To top it off,I spoke with a Hornady rep at a gun show last Saturday and asked him wth happened to this round. He just stared at me like I was from Mars. Claimed he had never even heard of it. Then I grabbed his latest catalog and searched for it myself----not there.

Any one know what's the deal on this? If I recall correctly it was gonna be a 45 grainer with some extra oooomph behind it, somewhat comparable in penetration with a lower load .380.....

 

[dennis228]

ChuckHawks.com just did a test on the Speer version I believe. You can read it for yourself but his thumbs up conclusion was a bit overhyped if you ask me.

Both Hornady and Speer are advertising specialized 22 Magnum rounds on each website. I have not seen either. IMMC the Speer is a 40 gr. and the Hornady 45 grains.

 

[rcmodel]

One thing you do not want to under-estimate is the incredibly loud sharp noise the .22 Mag makes out of a revolver. Even a 4" or 6" revolver.
It would be brutal indoors out of a 2" snubby.

I think you are on the right track looking at a .38 Spl. S&W J-Frame.
If she is not going to carry it in her bra or something, get a steel frame model.

You can easily find light 125 grain Cowboy Action loads, as well as 148 grain WC mid-range target ammo for practice.

Either will kick very little more then the .22 Mag, and will not blow her eardrums out through your nose if she had to shoot one inside the house.

rc

 

[rich642z]

I just got off the phone with Doug and he told me from the Hornady plant in Grand Island,Ne. that, The round of the .22wmr will not be started until July 15th and release date of end of July or mid August. That is on the Critical Defense round in 45 grain bullet.

 

[ThomasT]

I totally agree with the advice to get an S&W 431PD in 32 mag. I have one and even though it only weighs about 14oz it is easily controlled with hot 85 gr loads. Its load but not any louder than the 22 mag which is to say they are both eardrum busters.

I reload and keep mine loaded with 98gr wadcutters loaded to around 900-950 fps. I think this would be fine SD load and its a lot more pleasant to shoot too without the blast. If you can see if someone has one you can shoot before you buy. If you shoot one be ready to buy one.

Mine is in this thread here in post #53. http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=595739&page=3

 

[ThomasT]

Well I tried to attach the photo but the system won't let me do it twice. Sorry.

 

[Lawdawg45]

Matt,

I had the same situation with my wife about 5 years ago, she was worried about recoil and such so I bought her a Beretta .22. After a couple of trips to the range she realized that she shot better with my S&W J-frame with combat grips, and that it had about the same perceived recoil. If I had it to do all over again, I would buy her a .357 frame and have her use .38 +p ammo in it. As a retired LEO, I would never trust my life or safety to a .22, sure there are stories of intruders being dropped by one, but the stories are few and far between. Good luck with your choice.

LD45

 

[RedRaider3]

Thank you all for the great information. I am picking up my friend's 38 snub nose tonight for my wife to try at the range, so we shall see. Does anyone know of the lowest recoil loads available for .38?

LawDawg45, I totally agree; ideally I would like for her to carry at least a .32 H&R mag, if not at least a .357/.38 special. Ratshooter, I clicked your link and read the thread, very informative and nice pics; nice gun too! Rich642Z, Thank you for the info. Rcmodel, I am aware of the loudness of a .22mag, this weekend I am going to let my wife shoot the .22 mag side by side with a 38 with low recoil loads, SWC or some kind of cowboy load I think. We shall see. Dennis228, thanks for the info and yes I have read the Chuck Hawks write up on the .22WMR speer bullet. ElMariachi, Thanks for the info.

 

[pezo]

myth buster here. One thing that drives me a little nuts is the claim that .22 magnum is overly loud in short barrels. I fire this round without ear protection indoors out of a 1" barrel "on occasion enough times" to know its NOT that loud. It is softer than standard pressure .38 that is for sure. I speak from experience. Do not buy the bull on how loud the .22 mag is out of short barrels because it is bull.

 

[JohnBT]

You are wrong. Period.

I've had a Single-Six Convertible since 1972. Did I mention that not only are you wrong, but you are incredibly foolish to shoot indoors without hearing protection. Ask me how I know, and I shot outdoors.

Over the years I have had centerfire pistol shooters at the indoor range, including one guy with a .44 mag, come over to me and ask what I was shooting. Just a .22 WMR out of a 5.5" barrel. If the range is semi-dark you can see the big fireball from the muzzle and big flashes from the cylinder gap (which isn't very big either.)

 

[JohnBT]

www.m1911.org/loudness.htm

Remember, 3 decibels more means TWICE the sound energy.

"In logarithmic scales a sound which is only 3 db higher than another, has twice the energy. For example, if you look at the table below, the 9mm Para cartridge at 160 db has twice the sound energy of the .45 ACP cartridge which is measured at 157 db."

in db's

100 Chain shaw
120 Threshold of pain
120 Siren
134 .22 LR rifle
140 Jet engine at take-off
150 .410 shotgun
152 .22 LR pistol
153 20 gauge shotgun
155 .223 rifle
155 .25 pistol
156 12 gauge shotgun
156 .30-.30 rifle
156 .308 rifle
156 .44 Special revolver
157 .22 Magnum pistol
157 .45 ACP pistol
158 .380 ACP pistol
158 .38 Special revolver
159 .30-06
160 9mm Para pistol
163 .41 Magnum revolver
164 .357 Magnum revolver
164 .44 Magnum revolver

 

[El Mariachi]

I also second the opinion that the .22wmr's are very noticeably louder, both out of my Marlin 925 and our 6-1/2' barrel Rough Rider. I'd say the noise is at least as loud as the little Berreta Jet Fire .25. Even outdoors we all wear ears when shooting any of these....

 

[CraigC]

myth buster here. One thing that drives me a little nuts is the claim that .22 magnum is overly loud in short barrels. I fire this round without ear protection indoors out of a 1" barrel regulary and its NOT that loud. It is softer than standard pressure .38 that is for sure. I speak from experience. Do not buy the bull on how loud the .22 mag is out of short barrels because it is bull.

You must be deaf from doing so. The .22Mag is extremely loud from pistol barrels. I "speak from experience" but have enough brains not to shoot it indoors without hearing protection "regularly".

 

[pezo]

With all do respect, though I don't suggest recreational shooting without hearing protection the .22 magnum is one of the few calibers I feel safely occasionally shooting withou hearing protection. I have fired winchester, federal, cci variants of this round and find it quite pleasant on regards to noise and recoil. It is noticeably louder than .22 lr but more on par with that round than say .38 special. I have fired .38 special out doors and found it much, much louder than the .22 indoors. (.38 lrn). Even when I take the mini revolver to the in door range with my .38's or .357 mags with hearing protection you can totally tell a difference. Not even in the same level of noise. I won't carry .357 but rather .38 special partly do to noise concerns. So I am not deaf by any means. I would suggest a .22 mag if noise is a cocern do to its manageable report. Any one doubt this go shoot one and be honest. Geez just look at the diminutive size of the round. .22 mag loud

 

[41magsnub]

Man.. even a unsuppressed .22lr from a pistol is loud enough to cause pain outdoors for me. I'd hate to try a 22 magnum like that in any practice situation, even once.

 

[pezo]

I'm not saying it sounds like sweet beautiful music but its not the ear rupturing power blaster its rumored to be. I like and believe in carrying mouse guns if one cannot tote a standard gun. The .22 magnum is a good round in the defensive mouse gun category. Don't be turned off by it because of the rumored noise level of it. Cause that rumor is un founded.

 

[RugerMcMarlin]

pezo,....pezo,.....PEZO!, I think there is a pretty good chance your missing some of the mu.......I SAID, I THINK YOU MIGHT BE MISSING SOME OF THE MUSIC ALSO! I shouldn't joke my ears ring right now til I can barely stand it. At about 38 +P frequencey.

The 22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum was designed to be fired in a rifle. Came in a model 61. Any thing shorter than a rifle length barrel, is going to have plenty of powder left for flash and bang. 22MAG in a pistol will also approach 22LR out of a rifle barrel for velocity.

Bill Jordan, in his book No Second Place Winner devotes a whole chapter, to the 22mag snub nose as his choice as a backup pistol. I even think it was an 8 shot. Get the Taurus for her. I don't think though with a 2" barrel you will need the pricey new shells, they will just flash more. Just good ol'hollowpoints. I would rather have a 2" 22 mag in a revolver, than some of the pocket pistol calibers, myself.

 

[pezo]

Lol, hey is that ringing the phone? Helllo, shoot! No not literally. Ok my work is done here. Carry on.

 

[Pyro]

With small calibers you don't want any expansion.
Find a flat nose solid and stick with it.
I'd be curious to see the reactions if Hornady began to market just regular FN-FMJ .22 WMR like their other defense ammo.

 

[doc540]

Who's stocking the Speer WMR right now?

(And volume isn't the whole story....22WMR is like an ice pick compared to a .45 at the same volume)

 

[psyshack]

To the op,,, work with the little women.

I have worked with several lady's over the years concerning shooting. I've honestly never had one that was scared of recoil once they understood stance and how to distribute the energy. I have had many complain about not being able to rack a slide on a semi-auto. Just can't do it. Don't like the feel. It's to complex, yada, yada. I never believed it, just accepted it and filed it away. I know most women are a lot tougher than they let on. Take child birth. I can't think of a big bad man that would take on the task.

So teaching my wife went like must women I have worked with. There are exceptions. That is to big or thats to small or this is what? Then comes I can't work the slide and or safety's. It's to complex. But 10 mins. earlier they / she was slinging slide. After getting my wife shooting her 60 Pro. I would often see her out of the corner of my watching me rapid fire a semi and see terror in her eyes. After setting down and talking with this with the wife. She admitted the thought of something moving very fast towards her face was frighting. A major semi hang up. I asked other lady's about this I know. All admitted to the same issue with semi's. A few moved on past it while others are lethal revolver shooter's.

I've also had a hard time getting women into a good stance that works for them. Some just don't understand it as it's seen as aggressive stance. My wife doesn't have a aggressiveness bone in her body. And they just balance out different. If a good stance can be got. I've seen women fire anything a man would and not complain about recoil like so many men do now day's. My wife can now blast full house .357's out of her 60 Pro without complaint. As are other lady's I know.

I've enjoyed working with new lady shooters. And have enjoyed there exploratory journeys.

 

[El Mariachi]

Great obs and stories there, Psy, and you're correct, women are usually much tougher than we sometimes give them credit for. For the past 6 weeks, Mrs. Mariachi has gotten very comfy with both the Rough Rider and the MK III bull barrel (she's a golf ball killer also at 50' + out). So a couple of weeks ago I brought along a little Berreta Jet Fire in .25. She kinda liked it.....but--- a bit small, a bit uncomfortable, a bit noisy. Whatever, just trying to get her to try different guns. Then last week at the range I sand-bagged her with our latest acquisition, the stainless Blackhawk in .357/.38. Had her close her eyes and then put this beauty in her hands. Had her spin the cylinder and listen to the cool clicks, pull back the hammer and then pull the trigger a few times. Then I had her open her eyes, while I held the little Rough Rider out for her to grab as well. 'Wow, this thing is gorgeous---and heavy. But I like it.' So I gave her some 38+P 125g Rems and let her load it up. Had a bowling pin set out at 25 feet and told her to have at it. I noticed a bit of eye squinting before pulling the trigger for the first time (anticipation ) but right after that one she kinda looked at me in that strange way that she does and said 'Hmmm, a little more punchier with this one?' 'Yeah, but nothing you can't handle.' She then went on to shoot about 40 more rounds thru this thing during that morning, and was smiling the entire time. Even with the larger .357's. Recoil and noise is just not an issue anymore for her with this gun, which is what I was striving for. Then in a cool little twist of luck, some other people showed up and took the bench next to us. They had a lotta toys, including that huge Taurus revolver (Raging Bull?) that fires a .454 something-or-other. When I asked about the gun they nicely asked if I'd like to fire it...which I glady did, at a 5 gallon bucket 50 yards awy. Boom! I then had the Mrs. come over (and with the other party's permission) let her fire one round. Big boom! And a bit of a flinch. But with a huge smile as well. I love this gal.

Going back later to the Blackhawk she ran another 24 rounds down the barrel and acted like she grew up with one of these things in her hand. Which is just what I wanted to see........

 

[FROGO207]

I was disappointed not to see the Mosin listed in the DB levels. Betcha that would be a good un. I agree there is a lot more than DB level to a noise out of a firearm as some are just plain punishing. 500 S&W maybe?