Newb to hand loading: Charging a round?

[Grim Peeper]

I'm using a hand loader from lee and I'm using HP-38 for .45 ACP. It came with a little yellow spoon that I understand is one full scoop=1 charge but that's what confuses me. The hp38 instructions said use 5.2gr for 240gr cast .45. Ok so I'm really confused why are the same units being used for two different things. Also my scale measures in grams so how does this work? When I measure out a scoop it comes to .5 grams I just don't get the 5.2gr = 240gr. Why is Everything GR??? It's hard to figure this out when all the measuring units are the same. So how many Grams in a gr for a 240gr bullet?

 

[joem1945]

Not familiar with that scale but most are able to read in grains with the press of a button. IMHO grams are too large of increments for reloaders.

 

[Potatohead]

You might want to read up a good bit before going further, get some manuals, hang around here and absorb some info. But yea, you'll have to find a way to measure grains, I'd suggest a dedicated handloading scale. I never could get much done with those little yellow Lee spoons.

 

[aladdin]

The 5.2gr is the weight of the powder charge in grains. The 240gr is the weight of the bullet in grains. I would suggest you get a reloading manual and do a lot more reading before you do any reloading.

There are 453.592 grams in a pound
There are 7000 grains in a pound.

 

[OilyPablo]

Just weigh your powder in grains. Don't bother with the scoop............but other than first figuring out the charge, the bullet weight is no longer in the equation.

I agree with the other guys. Get some good reloading books and read up.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Ok got ya I need a grain scale.

 

[notaglockfanboy]

Read the posts above and get some manuals, and get a scale that measures in grains before you blow something up. If that scale you have don't measure in grains, that aint gonna cut it. The scoops are measured in volume. Some people use them instead of scales, but they will not be nearly as consistent as scale measured charges.

 

[SlowFuse]

Well, here's a conversion but I would also recommend studying a manual, or several and getting an appropriate scale. Understanding grain measurement is a very important part of reloading. Many people have used standard scales for reloading but it requires a lot of unnecessary math.

 

[MEHavey]

By volume:
The 0.5cc scoop = 5.4grains of HP38
http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf

IF that is the 0.5cc scoop, it's not a bad way to load that weight of that powder for a 230 grain bullet.
By the way, what 45 ACP bullet are you using that weighs 240gr ?

PLEASE get a reloading book (suggest Lyman's 49th); and
PLEASE get a scale that reads in grains

 

[GLOOB]

15.4 grains in a gram. Assuming your scale has a 0.1 gram resolution, you are only measuring to the nearest 1.54 grains! So you'd be playing a bit of a guessing game to get to where you want to be.

If you measure just one throw, you are getting plus or minus 0.77 grains in resolution (let alone accuracy for now). Half a gram = 7.7 grains, which is 2.5 grains from where you're expecting to be (5.2grains).... This is beyond the expected resolution error by a large margin. This is not surprising, since very small weights are often not accurate on a scale that only goes down to 0.1 grams. But really, you can't tell at this point if your scale is wrong or the dipper chart is off.

It would be possible to use such as scale if you are patient and careful and using dippers. You would just be using the scale to verify the dipper throw.

0. Tare the scale with the powder pan you intend to use.
1. Add a nickel. It should weigh exactly 5.0 grams. Then add two more nickels. Weight should be exactly 15.0 grams. If you can't get this kind of accuracy, you will have to get a better scale (or do some further measurements and calculations to figure out a correction factor). It your scale passes, turn it off/on and repeat a few times. If it still passes, it's within 2% accuracy (for that range of weights, anyway).
2. measure the sum weight of at least 20 dipper throws. If you measure the sum weight of 20 dippers and then divide by 20 and multiply weight in grams by 15.4 grains per gram, you will get a little better than 0.1 grain resolution. And the weight of 20 dipper throws will be in the neighborhood of 10 grams, which puts it in your verified accurate range. So your result have high enough resolution and accuracy to matter. If you get the result you are after, repeat two more times to verify.

Again, this is just to verify what your dipper is throwing, close enough to matter. If you still show greater than 5.2 grains per dip, you will have to buy/make/modify a dipper until you get where you want. Once done, you will not weigh this specific dipper thrown pistol charge, anymore. Also, be sure your dipping is consistent.

 

[SlowFuse]

And, just an FYI .5 grams equals 7.7 grains roughly so if you continued with this measurement it could be catastrophic. Please don't continue.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Got ya I have a gift card to cabelas done the road so I'm going to get a grain scale and some manuals.

 

[CZ9shooter]

I dont feel you are yet ready to reload on your own. If you are lucky enough to have a friend that can show you the ropes, that would be great. Otherwise, do what I and many others have done and study a couple manuals, this forum, even YouTube, until you understand every step. You should mostly know what to expect before the tools are even in your hands. Making little pipe bombs that go off just inches from your hands, and feet from your face, cannot be taken lightly.

 

[Reloadron]

I strongly agree with those who suggest doing much more reading before you even think about loading a first round. Really bad things can happen when the new hand loader doesn't do all the homework.

The little yellow spoon is what is called a powder dipper and is but one method to develop a powder charge. The dipper has a volume and there are many different size dippers. Powders have a density to them and all powders have different density. While a pound of water and a pound of lead both weigh a pound they certainly do not have the same volume do they? So different dippers have different volumes and different volumes for different powders acquaint to different weights of charge. Eventually you will find the scale is your new best friend along with other loading tools and how to use them correctly.

Get yourself, as was suggested, a good loading manual, that means a good hard bound book, like the Hornady 9th Edition or the Lyman manual. Read the book and then read it again. As you develop questions about what the book says ask questions here, there are dozens of hand loaders with many years of experience eager to help you along. Baby steps are very important and nobody here wants to ever see a new (or old) hand loader get hurt or worse.

Ron

 

[Grim Peeper]

Yes I have been reading some manual and I understand better now I pickup a Frankfort arsenal scale that measures grain and I know now that a full yellow dipper would have delivered 7.3 grains of powder when the hp-38 recommends 5.6 for a 185 gr bullet. I'm using Berrys 200gr bullets So if going I'm going to load in the 5.6 it might be a little under powered for the 200gr but it will be a good starting point right. i also bought the complete loading manual for .45acp and I'm reading about the different loads. If hodgdon hp-38 recommends 5.6 for a 185gr bullet then for my 200gr Berrys it should be slightly underpowered charge. I haven't loaded any charges yet so don't worry about that I still have about 700 cases to prosses before I start to charge them.

 

[MEHavey]

a full yellow dipper would have delivered 7.3
grains of powder when the hp-38....

Lee gave you a 0.7cc dipper and told you to use HP-38 ?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Yes I have been reading some manual and I understand better now I pickup a Frankfort arsenal scale that measures grain and I know now that a full yellow dipper would have delivered 7.3 grains of powder when the hp-38 recommends 5.6 for a 185 gr bullet. I'm using Berrys 200gr bullets So if going I'm going to load in the 5.6 it might be a little under powered for the 200gr but it will be a good starting point right. i also bought the complete loading manual for .45acp and I'm reading about the different loads. If hodgdon hp-38 recommends 5.6 for a 185gr bullet then for my 200gr Berrys it should be slightly underpowered charge. I haven't loaded any charges yet so don't worry about that I still have about 700 cases to prosses before I start to charge them.

Which loading manual? If you got the excellent little "One Caliber/One Manual" book, it is GREAT for load data (because it copied load data for a single caliber from many different manuals and also lays flat on your bench), but has one glaring shortcoming. All other manuals have descriptions of the loading process in the early chapters. Reading those chapters will give you a GREAT deal of information.

Remember that different ballistics labs use different guns (or pressure barrels) to do their load testing. Velocities (and the loads) in the manuals vary greatly and your gun is also a lab unto itself, as well.

Get thee to your local library and read loading manuals there for those descriptions. The age of the manuals does not matter (loading processes have not changed much in the past several decades since the introduction of smokeless powder), but hearing different authors' descriptions will expose you to different points of view, writing styles and areas of emphasis.

Quick trick to reduce the amount of powder a dipper throws is to drop a bit of melted wax into the dipper, then carve it down with the blade of a screwdriver or similar tool until the dipper volume is correct to mete the desired weight.

If your powder drop is a little too light, trickle granules of powder one or a few at a time with a trickler. These can be bought for about $20 or a used bottleneck (rifle) cartridge case twirled between your fingers will do and can be had for free at most any firing range.

As far as processing 700 cases goes, I would suggest processing a few (5 or 10) all the way through to shootable rounds and test them for function before doing anything more than cleaning on the rest. It would be maddening to discover there was something wrong with your method that ruined 690 cases that could have been avoided. I admit this dire scenario is unlikely, so use your best judgement. If you are sure, go ahead.

Lost Sheep

 

[notaglockfanboy]

Lee gave you a 0.7cc dipper and told you to use HP-38 ?

I believe he is looking at his hp-38 powder canister and giving the data on there.

 

[Grim Peeper]

Correct I'm sorry man I should have mentioned that. I'm looking at the chart that is directly on the front label. It doesn't really matter what Lee recommends because this the only powder I could find, the clerk said it was a good powder. The label recommendations are that for a 185gr bullet to use a 5.6 charge I'm using 200gr Berry's bullets so a charge of 6 should be good but I'm going to do some readings and forum surfing first. I may alter my spoon and shave the top down to deliver a 6 charge.

 

[Dudedog]

NO NO NO, 6 grains is wrong.
Heavier bullet = LESS, not more powder.

Your .7 dipper is to big for that powder in .45 APC. Nothing wrong with the powder, some take up more space some less. (the pound of feathers vs a pound of lead)
Just a side note Lee lists VMDs. A smaller vmd= more dense (less space for the same weight) a higher vmd = less dense (more space for the same weight)

For example .7 cc of HP38 is going to be about 7.6 grains. WAY to much = Kaboom
.7cc of Red Dot would be about 5 grains for example. (not saying to use that as a load just an example.)
You need to fill up about a 1/3 of the space in that dipper and see what that gives you.

HP38 is a great powder for .45 APC. (and lots of other pistol rounds) It is one of my favorites in .45 APC, a great powder to start with.

Go to Hodgdon's web site for load data.
what is listed on the can is usually a MAX charge, you want to start 10% below that and work up slowly and carefully if you want/need higher velocity.

They show 5.6 max for a 200 grain lead bullet, 5.9 max for a jacketed 200.
Start charge for lead is 4.4 gr, start for jacketed is 5.2. Don't trust me, go to their site and look it up.
Berrys are plated so plated usually loads between lead and jacketed.


The OAL (overall lenght) is also important. The deeper you seat the bullet in the case the less space there is so pressures increase. I like 4.7 or 5 grains of HP38 with 200 grain lead bullets. They function my Citadel fine, and shoot soft. The paper targets I am shooting don't care if they are light to medium loads.

I know it has been said, but please read a good manual to be safe. Again as far as the process goes an older manual is fine.
Until you know what you are doing and have more experience don't attempt to guess about powder charges.
I would also reccomend until you have more experience not going past the middle of the charge range.

We all want you to succeed and enjoy reloading and be safe, so please understand why we are all harping at you about reading a good manual.

To much powder, a bullet seated to deep and BAD things can happen.

 

[rcmodel]

The label recommendations are that for a 185gr bullet to use a 5.6 charge I'm using 200gr Berry's bullets so a charge of 6 should be good

So you are guessing that more powder with a heaver bullet should be good??!

Back away from the reloading equipment until you read a couple of good reloading manuals.

You clearly don't understand how this all works!!!

rc

 

[Grim Peeper]

Yeah I feel stupid now but I quess Im learning and I did say that I was a newb didn't I, Thank God! Anyway I actually didn't know that less powder for a larger bullet was the norm seems counter intuitive. Like I said Im new to reloading and only been shooting for about 5 years. now. Also given all these facts come to light Im only going to charge rounds exactly as the powder label and book says now. I would also like to say that in the 5 years Ive been shooting I have leaned most of what I know from this forum. Thanks for that!!!

 

[Lost Sheep]

Dudedog and RCModel are correct.

Heavier bullets have more mass, so are harder to get moving when the powder first ignites. A lighter bullet gets moving faster.

The faster moving bullet relieves the pressure faster than the slower moving bullet.

All this happens in a few milliseconds as the flame front works its way through the powder stacked in the cartridge case.

For an identical charge of propellant, pressure builds faster (and higher) behind a heavier bullet than a lighter one, so less powder is required to achieve the same pressure (likewise the same amount of powder will produce higher -sometimes much higher- pressure).

For an identical cartridge overall length, a heavier bullet extends deeper into the cartridge case than a lighter bullet (since the heavier bullet is longer, also a hollowpoint bullet of the same weight is longer than a round-nose or flat point bullet). This leaves less free volume in the cartridge under a longer bullet than a shorter one. So longer bullet, more pressure, even if the same weight.

Internal ballistics is the science that describes what happens between primer ignition and the bullet exiting the muzzle. It is an arcane and esoteric science and NOTHING TO BE GUESSED AT.

Good luck.

Lost Sheep

Note: this post was composed before your post 22.

Don't feel stupid. The heavier bullet/less powder thing confused me, too. It doesn't make intuitive sense until you drill down to the underlying physics.

 

[MrBorland]

I actually didn't know that less powder for a larger bullet was the norm seems counter intuitive.

Pressure. A heavier bullet is harder to move, so more pressure builds. Adding more powder increases that pressure even more, and by quite a bit. A properly matched bullet/powder load already has as much pressure as it needs. Adding more pressure is very bad juju.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Same thing happened to me, and I made the same choice you are now.

Yeah I feel stupid now but I quess Im learning and I did say that I was a newb didn't I, Thank God! Anyway I actually didn't know that less powder for a larger bullet was the norm seems counter intuitive. Like I said Im new to reloading and only been shooting for about 5 years. now. Also given all these facts come to light Im only going to charge rounds exactly as the powder label and book says now. I would also like to say that in the 5 years Ive been shooting I have leaned most of what I know from this forum. Thanks for that!!!

I started reloading the same week I got my first personally owned firearm. My education on the matter was minimal. But I proceeded with caution and stayed within midrange loads, weighed and measured everything I could and double-checked everything.

I didn't blow myself up or any guns, either. 39 years.

And that was before the internet made that so easy (or with the plethora of sources available today, maybe the lack of internet was a blessing).

Lost Sheep