Nice going: we are driving away our own allies.

[Oleg Volk]

Recently, I got a note from one of our long-term, highly respected members. He was leaving THR and concentrating on local pro-RKBA work. He also clarified for me why he was doing that:

I decided to step back from RKBA issues and take some time to think about where I stand on several issues. Over the last year I have had a string of negative experiences with other 'fellow' gun owners and I've found that I am letting that negativity get to me. I don't want to take that route.

I am bothered by the fact that my faith in my fellow gun owners is sinking fast. I think the idea that people are due their individual freedoms is based on the assumption that, at their core, there is a basic quality of spirit, an innate goodness at the heart of every person which will drive him or her to not only exercise those freedoms but to do so responsibly while avoiding harm to the person and rights of others. Over the last year I have seen unscrupulous vendors, I have seen a very good man repeatedly derided by other gun owners about what he chooses to carry - and I mean really hounded to the point that he spent money he probably didn't have to bring himself into line with the other gun owners- , run across a spate of white supremasists, and generally been hit in the face with a lot of ugly stereotypes.

I used to log onto THR to 'recharge my batteries' so to speak, perhaps to reassure myself that there was a basic nobility of character associated with the choice to keep and bear arms. I have found that, lately, I have felt that reassurance less and less. I have become more negative in my posts and attitude. I decided rather than take the low road I would choose to take the high road and step back before I lost my way. Instead I will focus on local issues, volunteering with the VCDL, and being the positive gun guy for my friends and co-workers.

What cinched it for me was that last night coming home from the gym I realized that I catch, by a wide margin, less guff from teachers for being a gun owner than I do from gun owners about being a teacher.

Perhaps this is completely my skewed perspective but perhaps not. I think it would be a good idea for me to step back and regain enough perspective that I figure out which it is.

While I disagree with some minor points, I agree with the major idea of this: we've seen some remarkably ugly behavior on this forum lately. And, much as we try to keep the peace by enforcing the forum rules, there's no way to legislate morality. What I propose, instead, is that we look into our own hearts and decide if we have acted in a manner becoming ladies and gentlemen who, in theory, represent the best of RKBA advocacy to the rest of the world. And if the answer to which you, personally, arrive is "not quite", don't talk about the past errors or type up statements of contrition. Just do better in the future.

Oleg Volk

 

[Josey]

I also have had negative experiences. On another forum, I was advised to basically suck it up or move on. My problem was with language and racism. I don't visit that forum anymore. I have had arguments with problem children on another forum. Racism, language and dangerous advice were the problems. I was banned. It is easy to give up. The founding fathers didn't. I won't either.

 

[c_yeager]

Throwing in the towel is his choice to make. Rather than throwing up one's hands in dispair i think it would be better to do what you can to make the forum a better place.

I used to log onto THR to 'recharge my batteries' so to speak, perhaps to reassure myself that there was a basic nobility of character associated with the choice to keep and bear arms. I have found that, lately, I have felt that reassurance less and less. I have become more negative in my posts and attitude I decided rather than take the low road I would choose to take the high road and step back before I lost my way.

By his own words he became part of the problem rather than the solution. After realising this this he chose to leave rather than to rectify things. If you find yourself in a possition where you're only options are to "take the low road" or leave, you have already given up.

 

[Wildalaska]

Ive been complaining about that exact same thing since Ive been here...the level of invective I see here is sometimes astonishining..coupled with recent blatant rascist comments I have seen makes me wonder what kind of image the RKBA movement has...

Used to be a whole lot of "organization bashing" by a certain coterie of people until mods stepped in and made it clear that that stuff wouldnt fly any more...

Perhaps the mods should delete or edit posts when the crap starts flying...wouldnt bother me in the slightest...

I mod on another non gun related Board and we edit or delete poists regularly...and publically questioning why can get ya banned...keeps the level of invective down...

WildandihatethetermsheepleAlaska

 

[BamBam-31]

I think that guy sees what he wants to see. From reading that post, I think that man does need to step back and examine himself.

By that same token, Oleg sees what he wants to see as well. He sees the need for a better forum, better conduct, better members that reflect well on gunowners as a whole.

I think the problem here is the expectation that we as gunowners should all fit a particular paradigm. Although there is a need for us to present a united front as gunowners, it is an undeniable fact that we are different people from different parts of the world. We each have different beliefs, opinions, outlooks, values, etc. To expect us all to fit some homogeneous stereotype is unrealistic.

There are bad apples, no doubt. I see them here, at gun shows, at the range, etc. There are also a great number of good apples. Here on THR, it's my personal belief that the good apples FAR outweigh the bad ones. If all you're looking for are the bad ones, it's like doing a search for the best 9mm handgun when all you have is a Glock in your safe. All you'll see is "Glock."

Like I keep telling my fiance, don't let what other people do or say determine who or what you are. Just be true to your values, be true to yourself. Let the bad apples rot.

 

[fjolnirsson]

Undoubtedly, we have the occasional nasty dispute here on THR. There are a few individuals who are unreservedly loyal to their particular clique, even to the point of ignoring facts and twisting stories to make themselves feel better about those cliques.
However, those folks are by far the exception. The behavior I have observed since I joined THR is a wonderful breath of fresh air. A better group of people I have never met. I am proud to be a member of THR.
I realized how truly fortunate we are to have this forum when I learned of Labgrade's passing. Having spoken online with him only a handful of times, I found myself shedding tears for the loss of a man I have never met. I feel as though I have lost a close family member. These are the relationships we forge here at THR. When a new member logs on, they are made to feel welcome without delay. That is a rare thing in itself.
Occasionally, I try to stop in at other boards for variety. I haven't posted elsewhere more than a handful of times since I found THR. I find an interesting post and start reading with the intention of posting, but I never make it. Always, before I get to the end of the thread, I am sick of the name calling and petty disputes, and I just want my THR.
Sure, we have our problems, and we could use a little work, but THR is home, and all of us are a family. Families squabble occasionally.
Some people haven't been on their best behavior lately, sure. They know who they are. And they will shape up, I have confidence in that.
THR is the best thing going.
I'd like to thank the staff here for the superb job they do. I'd be lost without this place.

 

[Hal]

Families squabble occasionally.

That's pretty much how I view it. There's no such thing as a functional family. Every family is disfuntional to some degree.

One of the things I've always appreciated about both TFL and THR is the "you've made your bed now lay in it" attitude of the mods and admins. I've had my share of,,err,,inappropriate posts,,as well as having been on the receiving end. Hey, it's life,,grow some thicker skin and move on. Keep it in perspective. After all it's just so much cyber grafitti when you get down to it. If you lose you're cool and hold a grudge against someone for what they type on an internet forum, then God help us all when you get turned loose armed in the real world.

Anyhow, I enjoy THR immensly for the rich collection of wit, information, ideas and the people. Most of all the people. I'm also one of the minority that really appreciates the annonomity this forum provides. Not for my own sake though. I really get a kick out of seeing some of the "handles" people use, and enjoy speculating on the why of their choice of screen name. Not only that, but it's fun to see someone with real real-life crediantials post under a handle, and use nothing but the information they provide to make a "name" for themself... posters like Ala Dan, Pax and 1911 Tuner come to mind. I'd be willing to bet that any of them could assume a different name, and still be immediatly recognizeable simply by the content or wording of their posts.

OTOH - The RKBA has pretty much drummed me out 100%. I'm in total disgust of the entire way it's all turned out on a large scale. I see it as nothing short of a money making scheme on both sides of the issue. Each side is equally guilty;each side uses the same emotional come-on;each side preaches the "We're right, they're wrong - send money" doctrine;each side uses the "in your face" approach. Win/lose, it doesn't matter on either side. There's just as many eliteists on the pro and the anti side.


On THR - it's simply the finest forum on the web.

 

[Tom Bri]

Have seen a few hot disputes here on the THR, but nothing that would make me leave. The 'racism' here is pretty mild, and mostly just comments about not liking a particular aspect of some culture . I have not seen any real racism here, that is hatred of a particular group for things they can't control like eye shape, and I am pretty sensitive to it, being married to a person of another race, and having mixed race kids.

The main hot disputes these days are political, liberals against conservatives against libertarians. Hey, it is an election year. Get over it, already.

This guy just sounds tired. We all get that way sometimes. Hope he comes back in fighting.

 

[only1asterisk]

While I'm sorry to lose anyone, I don't think there needs to be any fundamental change in how THR operates. THR is the absolute best place on the web to discuss the RKBA and while we may have had some growing pains and some reduction in quality of late, I have faith in the mission’s success.


David

 

[TXBera]

I found this place not long ago looking for some answers to just a few simple questions, and I found that and more. There was never anywhere else that I could find this level of friendship and expertise. Not my coworkers, not my friends who knew about as much as I did, and not my family.

I still feel that this is a professionally run organization and that the High Road is being taken on a vast majority of subjects. It is inevitable that we will fray a few nerves and ruffle some feathers, but as long as we come back to being a community led by the best instead of just a collection of gun owners we will come out all right.

I also found something that I believe in. I never knew that the right to keep and bear arms was close to falling off the edge, but I feel that if I do my part I will help edge it back from the void of tyranny.

 

[TonyB]

People have a right to their wrong opinions...that's what America is about...some people can't express their opinion with out being immature,but that's life....sure there are great gun people,but guess what,there are some a-holes too...just like LIFE.....we could all grow up a little..but I do think this forum does a ton more good than harm....also remember this is the INTERNET...anyone can come in.....as someone on this forum said...take the advice you get on the internet for what you pay for it...
as far as gun people who he's seen that are white-supremists...they're idiots,and the ones who harrased his buddy into buying a gun he couldn't afford...idiots too...in every group of people in any interest you'll find morons..do you cut and run,or at least try to be one of the good guys???me I'll stick around and try to be a positive influence to gun owners and those sitting on the fence....

 

[MikeJ]

I agree that THR is by far the best gun board out there. I have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge and the pleasure of exchanging information and ideas with folks that share my hobby. I have read a few posts/responses I felt were inappropriate but the overwhelming majority of them have been civil and polite. I avoid confrontations with the self-righteous and extremists as they will always be right and everyone else will be wrong. This is a lesson I learned many many years ago and one I have never forgotten. There are reasons people feel the way they do about certain issues and if you don't try to understand their reasoning you will never be able to offer a good opposing rationale as to your beliefs. I'm sorry that someone is stepping back from THR for the reasons cited but perhaps they just need a vacation from cyber space and will return with a fresh perspective. Being pro RKBA doesn't automatically bestow any other positive qualities upon someone so I take it for what it is, a place to share a common interest. Having been a part of the shooting community for over 20 years I am well aware that not everyone who shares this interest is also someone I necessarily am going to find a lot of other common ground with. I hope this person returns to THR as they obviously have a real concern for the manner in which we relate to each other as we all should.

 

[snbend]

I believe what I believe. Everyone else has the same right. I dont try to press my beliefs on others, however I will express my opinion as I see it. To leave the forum because of some comments of less enlightened opinions is allowing yourself to be compormised. We have an obligation to stand up for what we think is right. If we choose to remain slient, the extremists will be the only voices out there. Imagine what a skewed view it would portray if only one side is heard!

 

[Quartus]

I think the idea that people are due their individual freedoms is based on the assumption that, at their core, there is a basic quality of spirit, an innate goodness at the heart of every person which will drive him or her to not only exercise those freedoms but to do so responsibly while avoiding harm to the person and rights of others.

A fundamentally wrong idea, such as this one, will always lead to disappointment.

 

[Mad Man]

I am bothered by the fact that my faith in my fellow gun owners is sinking fast. I think the idea that people are due their individual freedoms is based on the assumption that, at their core, there is a basic quality of spirit, an innate goodness at the heart of every person which will drive him or her to not only exercise those freedoms but to do so responsibly while avoiding harm to the person and rights of others. Over the last year I have seen unscrupulous vendors, I have seen a very good man repeatedly derided by other gun owners about what he chooses to carry - and I mean really hounded to the point that he spent money he probably didn't have to bring himself into line with the other gun owners- , run across a spate of white supremasists, and generally been hit in the face with a lot of ugly stereotypes.

I've had similar thoughts over the past year or so.

It's not as a result of what I've read here, but of actually becoming involved with various organizations and clubs (both political and shooting).

Being a dedicated firearms enthusiast for over 15 years, I was willing to put up with a lot of crap from the clubs. It's not very principled of me, but places to shoot are becoming more scarce, and I didn't feel like making waves.

Last year, Colorado passed a "shall issue" CCW law, and people I know who never touched a gun before became interested. I helped as much as I could, but I'm not a certified instructor (to meet the training requirements), nor do I have land to shoot on. So I had to direct these people to others for some of the help they needed.

After being able to see -- from the perspective of newbies -- what new shooters go through to get started, I'm convinced that the gun culture is doing everything in its power to frustrate and drive away new shooters. Just saying "We welcome new people" doesn't mean we actually do.

Combine a scarce supply (of gun shops, places to shoot, instructors) with the worst aspects of a "good old boy culture," petty organization politics, a "this is the way we've always done it" attitude of groups that rarely contain anyone under 50 years old, and some over-inflated egos (shooters can be some of the most self-righteous and arrogant people I know), and you've got a recipe for... Well, I'm not sure what it is, but I don't think it bodes well for the future of the gun culture.

I'm at the point where I'm seriously thinking about selling off my gun collection (50 + pieces) and dropping out of the gun culture altogether. It has become more of a chore than anything, and I'm sure I can put the money toward a more enjoyable hobby.

 

[pax]

Mad Man ~

If the good people like yourself leave the shooting world, who will be left to carry the torch?

pax

No matter what side of the argument you are on, you always find people on your side that you wish were on the other. -- Jascha Heifetz

 

[Sarge111]

Been there, done that...

didn't buy the T-shirt.

I don't hang around here because the majority of people who post here are particularly knowledgable, nice, or agree with my politics. This is one of those wonderful places that have, as a feature, an "ignore this idiot" opition in the User CP. It may be my favorite of them all.

I hang around here for what I might be able to contribute to those who can benefit from my experience, and to encourage the newbies to slow down, take a deep breath, think about what you're about to do, and use "safety and common sense" as anchor points. Sometimes I don't set a very good example, and sometimes I get sick of reading idiotic replies to relevant posts. Guess what? I ain't responsible for the bone-headed few. I am responsible for myself, and the example I set for others.

If it gets too bad, here or anywhere else, I'll take a hike. One of the old, original sixgun boards had a major insurrection here a few weeks ago. People who had been close allies for years were at each other's throats. Incidents like these remind me that we are all flawed humanity, and we all occasionally have a bad day. Best to make genuine efforts not to say things you have to live down later- or can't live down at all. Life's too short, and we really need to think about how our actions here affect the RKBA effort. Every shooter we lose is a shooter who won't teach others.

Thanks for letting us know, Oleg.

 

[JeffS]

The significance of whether he leaves, you leave, I leave, stay, feel hurt, or feel happy is of miniscule importance in the grand scheme of things. After reading your topic, I felt the best approach was to not post it but ignore it. You will be surprised on how providing no attention or acknowledgement can correct whinning. Fathers and mothers know this.

 

[Logistar]

Anytime you get a large number of people together you will get "the good, the bad, and the ugly".

However, as boards go, I believe this one has no equal. While I sometimes see things that I feel that are inappropriate... that is my opinion. There is another side of the coin though. If the mods run things TOO tight then will some of us be afraid to express our views?

When I read THIS board a "bad post" to me reflects on the individual, not the board. As long as the majority of users do a good job I think it's fine. In fact, usually what happens is that when a person makes a "bad" post he is chastized for it by members as well as mods.

I generally agree with the comments in this thread but please don't anyone have a knee-jerk reaction here!

Logistar

 

[mondocomputerman]

I would have to partially agree with Oleg. Lets keep this forum about guns and shooting, and less about making someone look stupid or always correcting someones grammar or spelling. I have learned so much from this forum. I hope to contribute more as I learn more about guns and shooting.

 

[MuzzleBlast]

Here's a thought:

If you find that a thread is annoying or offending you, hit the "back" button and find another thread. If there is a person that is just always a jerk, put them on your "ignore" list. Why let another person decide whether or not you are going to enjoy your hobby or this forum?

 

[Bruce H]

Without knowledge you have nothing. Places like this give a samplleing of thought on various subjects. If you make a statement be prepaired to back it up and defend it. Anybody that bails from the anonymity of the internet will never show up in person for anything. How many who have met people that they never seen before but comminicated with over the net were completely taken aback to meet them in person?

 

[mtnbkr]

I thought that letter was from a friend of mine who left THR for roughly the same reasons until I saw the reference to being a teacher.

I gotta say things have been getting uglier here lately. Just a few days ago, I was all but accused of being a gun grabber because I disagreed with a fellow's method of protest. I get the disctinct impression that some feel there is nothing out of bounds in the defense of RKBA, including lying, cheating, and otherwise taking the "low road".

Chris

 

[BluesBear]

Just as there are some who "can't play nice with others", there will always be those who just "pull up their pants and go home". The preponderance of these types is what keeps me away from Legal & Political. It's not that I don't care, it's just that I come here to relax and learn.

You can't please everyone all of the time. I have watched good people leave THR. It's always a shame when that happens, but like death, it is a sad fact of life.

I am thankful every day for THR. I feel that there is more information shared here than in all of the gun magazines combined. And we have the potential to reach an infinitely greater proportion of the people.

There will always be those who strive to split us asunder, but I don't think that is possible. In our case the whole is truely greater than the individual parts.

To paraphrase an infamous quote, "We must all hang together or certainly we shall all hang separately."

Just my Tuppence Hapenny (2½¢)

 

[Werewolf]

THR is one of the most friendly, civilized and least antagonistic of any forum - web or newsgroup - I've participated in since I started computing in 1978 and using BBS'.

This place is a kitten's playpen compared to most places you will find. I still haven't figured out why.

Does THR have the occasional flame fest/war? Yep! JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER FAMILY DOES... The fights come and they go - you deal with it and get on with your daily routine.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in any post so far is that in a medium where thought is transmitted thru the written word there are bound to be misunderstandings. Few if any of us are professional writers. It is difficult at best and impossible at worst to impart in the limited space available what we really mean or how we really feel. What may seem obvious and non-combative at all to one can come across as totally incomprehensible and antagonistic to another. Smileys help but are not a panacea. Because we are communicating thru the written word we should all try as best we can to give the other guy the benefit of the doubt.

Regarding the guy bailing on THR - well - sometimes that's really the right thing to do. Take a break, get away. If it turns out he misses THR he'll be back - if not then cest' la vie.