Nice going: we are driving away our own allies.
- Thread starter Oleg Volk
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ThreadKiller
Member
The Internet is not for the thin skinned. Can't take the heat? Get out of the kitchen!
We see what we want to see.
Tim
We see what we want to see.
Tim
Well it’s an election year, and we seem to be attracting threads on issues not necessarily related to firearms and/or firearms rights. These I think, have some of the most acrimonious posts. I believe everyone has a right to express their views so long as the thread isn’t locked, but I don’t think they have a right too do it by impugning the views of others or making personal attacks. Perhaps we might be better off if political issues were limited to those that had a specific firearms component – but that again is up to the Moderators, not to me. I would mention that Preacherman for one, has posted threads on issues that while not being specifically firearms orientated have been very informative without being overly confrontational, and I have, and do, appreciate his efforts. He is without question a good example for us all.
On firearms issues: Many have strong opinions about the superiority of this kind over another kind, but one can advocate what they support without necessarily running down what others like. In cases where someone goes overboard I think a P.M. from a Moderator might be enough to straighten things out. If not, stronger action could be taken. I would hope that our members, with their many diverse backgrounds and views could get along with each other. Personally I haven’t had any trouble with this, and hopefully I can avoid name-calling and worse. It is not difficult for anyone to read the forum rules concerning behavior. Hopefully everyone will do so.
On firearms issues: Many have strong opinions about the superiority of this kind over another kind, but one can advocate what they support without necessarily running down what others like. In cases where someone goes overboard I think a P.M. from a Moderator might be enough to straighten things out. If not, stronger action could be taken. I would hope that our members, with their many diverse backgrounds and views could get along with each other. Personally I haven’t had any trouble with this, and hopefully I can avoid name-calling and worse. It is not difficult for anyone to read the forum rules concerning behavior. Hopefully everyone will do so.
twoblink
Member
I'm ok with the arguing, to a certain point. What I am mostly afraid of isn't the combativeness, but complacency... That's what scares me to most.
If you see a problem, be part of the solution... stand and fight for what you love.
If you see a problem, be part of the solution... stand and fight for what you love.
mtnbkr
Member
Thats the standard mantra for people who think the Internet excuses them from basic civility. Just because you can say things without consequence that would get you punched in the nose in Real Life doesn't mean you should.
Chris
bogie
Member
I think the fellow essentially put into writing more than a few of my thoughts... I've been thinking of passing on this forum... Why? An increasing number of ubertactical shoot first, ask questions later, folks who seem to want armed conflict, just so long as the "right" people come out on top...
It's become boring at best, and loathesome at worst.
It's become boring at best, and loathesome at worst.
mtnbkr
Member
That's all but driven me away from a few knife forums as well.
Chris
While I understand some of the idea put forth on this thread, I can't help but recall H.L. Mencken's take on things.
Putting your "faith" in people on the Internet might be the biggest part of the problem.
Again, check out the Old Testament to see what being God's appointed guide to bringing an entire nation out of slavery will get you.
Griping and moaning and kvetching and sniping and bitching and insults and scorn.
Maybe I'm cynical?
hillbilly
Putting your "faith" in people on the Internet might be the biggest part of the problem.
Again, check out the Old Testament to see what being God's appointed guide to bringing an entire nation out of slavery will get you.
Griping and moaning and kvetching and sniping and bitching and insults and scorn.
Maybe I'm cynical?
hillbilly
Partisan Ranger
Member
I think anyone who brings race into a gun discussion should be warned once by the moderator. Then banned on a 2nd offense. All it takes is a few racists among us to tar us all.
spacemanspiff
Senior Member
i think that takes it too far Partisan. its not the mentioning of race that is a problem, its the DEROGATORY references to a persons racial heritage.
well, I for one have found THR to be one of the most civil forums on the web. However, I tend to stick to general discussion and the rifle and handgun sections. the weather seems pretty civil in there. I foray into legal and political once or twice a month in order to keep abreast of developments rather than to have a chat over what my personal politics are.
Even when I have jumped in on a more argumentative thread, it hasn't been too bad.
Even so, the moderators shouldn't feel bad about locking down more threads. There are plenty of threads every day that just boil down to bickering. Bickering is fine, but when it's started on the third time around the same old neighborhood without anyone changing their opinions,it might be time to let it go... or have someone let it go for you.
Even when I have jumped in on a more argumentative thread, it hasn't been too bad.
Even so, the moderators shouldn't feel bad about locking down more threads. There are plenty of threads every day that just boil down to bickering. Bickering is fine, but when it's started on the third time around the same old neighborhood without anyone changing their opinions,it might be time to let it go... or have someone let it go for you.
Penforhire
Member
This forum is by far the most well managed firearms forums I have ever seen. We have our share of insensitive people but we are far from the roughest crowd around. I come here for reasonable discourse on firearm issues. I do not believe we need to be more friendly to new-comers than we already are. We will never be able to tone down the caliber wars, Glocks-are-best, or 1911 snob cliques. Those and their kind are less important if we all participate.
Regarding racism, I have a pretty low tolerance for it and, again, I see less of it here than on most public boards. We (moderators) should be vigilant but not knee-jeck PC at the same time. Spacemanspiff is right, the intent to insult or demean must be present. For example, reporting the race of persons involved in an event is not racist in and of itself. Cultural differences related to self-defense or firearms are also worth discussing. By definition any "culture" is a stereotype. You cannot avoid a degree of stereotyping in cultural discussion. It does not invalidate the cultural observations.
Regarding racism, I have a pretty low tolerance for it and, again, I see less of it here than on most public boards. We (moderators) should be vigilant but not knee-jeck PC at the same time. Spacemanspiff is right, the intent to insult or demean must be present. For example, reporting the race of persons involved in an event is not racist in and of itself. Cultural differences related to self-defense or firearms are also worth discussing. By definition any "culture" is a stereotype. You cannot avoid a degree of stereotyping in cultural discussion. It does not invalidate the cultural observations.
hansolo
Member In Memoriam
Glad I saw this thread!
After going through THR "withdrawal" over the weekend, the first thread I read(NOT this one)got my blood boiling and I started to compose a response....one that I KNEW would illicit heated posts. Sometimes the act of writing my feelings is enough: I deleted the post and immediately read THIS one: whomever said "ALL people are basically GOOD" is either naive or very sheltered....I feel that all people have the POTENTIAL for good or bad.....I ALSO don't feel it appropriate to spew confrontational rhetoric, ex.:
'Get Over it!', 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'.....that yuppie stuff is just mean and shows a lack of decency to your RKBA brothers and sisters.
After going through THR "withdrawal" over the weekend, the first thread I read(NOT this one)got my blood boiling and I started to compose a response....one that I KNEW would illicit heated posts. Sometimes the act of writing my feelings is enough: I deleted the post and immediately read THIS one: whomever said "ALL people are basically GOOD" is either naive or very sheltered....I feel that all people have the POTENTIAL for good or bad.....I ALSO don't feel it appropriate to spew confrontational rhetoric, ex.:
'Get Over it!', 'Lead, follow or get out of the way'.....that yuppie stuff is just mean and shows a lack of decency to your RKBA brothers and sisters.
This forum is with doubt the best i have seen however overall our society is
becoming less polite and more arguementative as can be seen by the new
and much watched reality shows which seem to enjoy putting people down,
as a senior I find it "jerry Springer" like and refuse to watch. However my feeling
is ignore those that have no commen sense and enjoy those that do. By and large gun owners are a great group but as in anything you find the south end
of a mule.
becoming less polite and more arguementative as can be seen by the new
and much watched reality shows which seem to enjoy putting people down,
as a senior I find it "jerry Springer" like and refuse to watch. However my feeling
is ignore those that have no commen sense and enjoy those that do. By and large gun owners are a great group but as in anything you find the south end
of a mule.
another okie
Member
I agree with Quartus. The original post said:
"I think the idea that people are due their individual freedoms is based on the assumption that, at their core, there is a basic quality of spirit, an innate goodness at the heart of every person which will drive him or her to not only exercise those freedoms but to do so responsibly while avoiding harm to the person and rights of others. "
This is indeed a delusion.
Freedom is based on the idea that no one is good enough to be king.
We must be willing to use force against those who abuse their freedoms to harm others.
"I think the idea that people are due their individual freedoms is based on the assumption that, at their core, there is a basic quality of spirit, an innate goodness at the heart of every person which will drive him or her to not only exercise those freedoms but to do so responsibly while avoiding harm to the person and rights of others. "
This is indeed a delusion.
Freedom is based on the idea that no one is good enough to be king.
We must be willing to use force against those who abuse their freedoms to harm others.
bogie
Member
An elaboration...
I'm tired of seeing threads deriding gun show promotors for insisting that guns be zip-tied, etc... Sure, this is gonna mean that you have to have what you bring in zip-tied. Not a problem to me. I rarely feel safer than at a gun show. What some folks don't realize is that it only take ONE anti to walk in and chamber a round in something that's for-sale, which some bubba will then pick up, point at random, and pull the trigger on... Some of y'all are preaching your own brand of zero tolerance.
I'm tired of hearing folks ask about what x-number of guns you should have in the event the government (a) becomes more oppressive; (b) becomes less oppressive; (c) goes away completely; (d) merges, willingly or unwillingly, with another. Attached to this is the "I wanna tactical rifle so I can shoot jackbooted storm troopers" discussion. This is both boring, and makes us look bad to the occasional fence sitter who may wander by. And it really irritates those of us with non-tactical target rifles, who can shoot better than you can. If you don't think so, bring money.
I'm tired of folks assuming that everyone else is a white christian homophobe, just like themselves... Sorry, campers, but if you have a problem with people who aren't of ango-saxon heritage or folks of other religions, and get twitchy around folks with nontraditional gender issues, maybe this isn't the place for you. Personally, I get twitchy around folks who don't like my friends.
I'm tired of seeing threads deriding gun show promotors for insisting that guns be zip-tied, etc... Sure, this is gonna mean that you have to have what you bring in zip-tied. Not a problem to me. I rarely feel safer than at a gun show. What some folks don't realize is that it only take ONE anti to walk in and chamber a round in something that's for-sale, which some bubba will then pick up, point at random, and pull the trigger on... Some of y'all are preaching your own brand of zero tolerance.
I'm tired of hearing folks ask about what x-number of guns you should have in the event the government (a) becomes more oppressive; (b) becomes less oppressive; (c) goes away completely; (d) merges, willingly or unwillingly, with another. Attached to this is the "I wanna tactical rifle so I can shoot jackbooted storm troopers" discussion. This is both boring, and makes us look bad to the occasional fence sitter who may wander by. And it really irritates those of us with non-tactical target rifles, who can shoot better than you can. If you don't think so, bring money.
I'm tired of folks assuming that everyone else is a white christian homophobe, just like themselves... Sorry, campers, but if you have a problem with people who aren't of ango-saxon heritage or folks of other religions, and get twitchy around folks with nontraditional gender issues, maybe this isn't the place for you. Personally, I get twitchy around folks who don't like my friends.
spartacus2002
Member
BY FAR this is one of the most civil threads on the Net. I used to think the rule that all posts must be firearms-related was harsh, but I see how it keeps us focused. I've hung out at boards that allow general non-firearms related discussion, and the vitriol arises against "usual suspects."
Even the LEO v. non-LEO "bashing" threads are pretty tame and, for the most part, professional. If you don't believe it, go hang out at other boards for a few days; you will come running home to THR.
Even the LEO v. non-LEO "bashing" threads are pretty tame and, for the most part, professional. If you don't believe it, go hang out at other boards for a few days; you will come running home to THR.
bountyhunter
member
And tyranny is what occurs when enough people forget this truth..... or trade it away for "security".
Diamondback
Member
I concur with the spirit of Oleg's suggestion. In general its useful from time to to take an inventory of one's behavior.....both good AND bad. A reminder from one gentleman or woman to another to recommit to civility and treat one another with repect should be taken as it is intended: a call to responsibility.
While I think by and far this forum is populated with the most knowledgable witty, helpful, and generous people I have met........I too have been offended by some comments that have been made........particularly on the Political forum. While I understand that since the dawn of man politics and religion are hotly debated subjects........it is important not to be so intolerent and offesive to those who see things differently than we do that.... well....that we fall guilty to the sins of those who hate.
That being said I want to comment on particular thread I read recently on the Hunting forum. A member posted regarding his desire to hunt.......and also about his misgivings. There was nothing BUT undestanding and encouragement for the member. Veteran hunters recalled their uncertainty and guilt the first few times they killed. No one made fun of him..........some even offered to take him out with them on a hunt.........everyone offered him reassurance. Man....... it was the High Road at its best !
While I think by and far this forum is populated with the most knowledgable witty, helpful, and generous people I have met........I too have been offended by some comments that have been made........particularly on the Political forum. While I understand that since the dawn of man politics and religion are hotly debated subjects........it is important not to be so intolerent and offesive to those who see things differently than we do that.... well....that we fall guilty to the sins of those who hate.
That being said I want to comment on particular thread I read recently on the Hunting forum. A member posted regarding his desire to hunt.......and also about his misgivings. There was nothing BUT undestanding and encouragement for the member. Veteran hunters recalled their uncertainty and guilt the first few times they killed. No one made fun of him..........some even offered to take him out with them on a hunt.........everyone offered him reassurance. Man....... it was the High Road at its best !
BryanP
Member
This may be a bit disjointed and rambling as I'm having a hard time formulating exactly what I wish to say.
As you can see I discovered THR one year ago this month. I had wandered through multiple boards looking for something and I found it here - good information in a generally friendly and civil environment.
In the past 3 months or so I have noticed the "civil" part going downhill. I have also noticed that several of the posters I found most informative and civil have been posting less and less.
Please, keep this question in mind when posting: "Would I say this if we were all standing around in the back yard grilling some burgers and chatting?" If the answer is no, think about it some more. I can't count the number of times I have hit reply, typed in what I was thinking, stopped, re-read it a couple of times and then clicked cancel.
We may disagree on Democrat vs. Republican vs. Libertarian. We may disagree on Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism vs. Atheism vs. Hinduism vs. Agnosticism vs... (okay already). We may disagree on homosexuality, abortion, the draft, the French, or what makes a good movie. Fine, disagree on these subjects, but that's no reason to be rude or obnoxious about it.
There are people on this board who would consider me a heathen for owning multiple Taurus revolvers and daring to claim that I've never had a single problem with any of them. Or worse, because I don't happen to think the 1911 is the most wonderful thing ever AND I don't have any particular use for Glocks. Here's the secret: I say good things about my Taurii, but I generally keep my mouth shut about 1911's and Glocks. I'll make 9mm vs .45 jokes, but that's about it, jokes.
One of my best friends is an out-and-out Socialist. She believes we would all be better off under a true Socialist system of government. She and I disagree on this subject. Fortunately we can disagree without it affecting our friendship. This is because we both know when to stop the conversation and walk away for a while. Again, I try to keep that frame of reference in mind when posting online.
If I may abuse the smilies for a moment, if you have to make a comment about something that makes you :banghead: , try making it a
comment instead of a 
comment. That way the general feeling is or 
, not 
or 
.
As you can see I discovered THR one year ago this month. I had wandered through multiple boards looking for something and I found it here - good information in a generally friendly and civil environment.
In the past 3 months or so I have noticed the "civil" part going downhill. I have also noticed that several of the posters I found most informative and civil have been posting less and less.
Please, keep this question in mind when posting: "Would I say this if we were all standing around in the back yard grilling some burgers and chatting?" If the answer is no, think about it some more. I can't count the number of times I have hit reply, typed in what I was thinking, stopped, re-read it a couple of times and then clicked cancel.
We may disagree on Democrat vs. Republican vs. Libertarian. We may disagree on Christianity vs. Islam vs. Judaism vs. Atheism vs. Hinduism vs. Agnosticism vs... (okay already). We may disagree on homosexuality, abortion, the draft, the French, or what makes a good movie. Fine, disagree on these subjects, but that's no reason to be rude or obnoxious about it.
There are people on this board who would consider me a heathen for owning multiple Taurus revolvers and daring to claim that I've never had a single problem with any of them. Or worse, because I don't happen to think the 1911 is the most wonderful thing ever AND I don't have any particular use for Glocks. Here's the secret: I say good things about my Taurii, but I generally keep my mouth shut about 1911's and Glocks. I'll make 9mm vs .45 jokes, but that's about it, jokes.
One of my best friends is an out-and-out Socialist. She believes we would all be better off under a true Socialist system of government. She and I disagree on this subject. Fortunately we can disagree without it affecting our friendship. This is because we both know when to stop the conversation and walk away for a while. Again, I try to keep that frame of reference in mind when posting online.
If I may abuse the smilies for a moment, if you have to make a comment about something that makes you :banghead: , try making it a
comment instead of a comment. That way the general feeling is or , not or .ThreadKiller
Member
I'll stick by those words thank you. State your opinion often enough and sooner or later someone is going to disagree with you. It's called "life."
Deal with it.
Tim
craig
Member
i got out of shooting about 20 years ago. back then algore hadn't invented the internet so the only place i could get advice was the range or gun shop. some of the people i ran into got me down on shooting. i got back into it because i missed it and i can afford it better now. i stumbled across THR by accident. i asked a few questions about new guns and the people who answered didn't cop the " look at the idiot attitude". they answered me with the best advice they had. it worked so good my wife now shoots with me. unfortunately she thinks her guns are hers and my guns are hers. i'm staying here. i've gotten honest advice and opinions that've been a refreshing change from the b.s.i got in the past. keep up the good work. craig
i'm staying here. i've gotten honest advice and opinions that've been a refreshing change from the b.s.i got in the past. keep up the good work. craigBullet Bob
Member
Man, BryanP, I was dead on with you until you got to the Taurus part! Now see, that's joke, and I bet Bryan understood - however several people here would question my ancestry, good sense, and honor for daring to make it, and write some ranting response. I do think this forum has more younger members than most, maybe testosterone is a factor, I don't know. Generally, I don't respond to those posts, as idiots will drag you down to their level, and they have more experience there.
I'm was beginning to wonder if there was a place for me, but I see by the reponses that several people believe that civility is important, and that a difference of opinions is not a reason to get upset.
I believe every person has a right to choose their own path, as long as they are responsible for their actions, and do not harm others. I don't consider my beliefs to facts; I can be wrong. Let's take the last couple of presidential elections - I believe in protecting the environment, a woman (or anyone else's) right to control their body and spirit, and the right to own guns - where's my candidate? If someone else chooses not to carry or own guns, they're not sheeple, they're just people who've reached a different conclusion than me, and that's okay.
I'm was beginning to wonder if there was a place for me, but I see by the reponses that several people believe that civility is important, and that a difference of opinions is not a reason to get upset.
I believe every person has a right to choose their own path, as long as they are responsible for their actions, and do not harm others. I don't consider my beliefs to facts; I can be wrong. Let's take the last couple of presidential elections - I believe in protecting the environment, a woman (or anyone else's) right to control their body and spirit, and the right to own guns - where's my candidate? If someone else chooses not to carry or own guns, they're not sheeple, they're just people who've reached a different conclusion than me, and that's okay.
ChickenHawk
Member
Not too long ago, I replied to a thread which was discussing "Sheeple" and compared it to the 'N' word as a negative stereotype that only harms us to use.
I think it's exactly that kind of terminology and that kind of discussion that turns people who are on the fence against us, and gives antis ammo to use against us.
For my comment (which received heated responses that got the thread killed) I received a few PMs accusing me of getting a "good discussion" thread locked.
Perhaps there are ways to discuss others views (even those we consider unfounded and uninformed) without resorting to name calling which reflects more on us than them.
ChickenHawk
I think it's exactly that kind of terminology and that kind of discussion that turns people who are on the fence against us, and gives antis ammo to use against us.
For my comment (which received heated responses that got the thread killed) I received a few PMs accusing me of getting a "good discussion" thread locked.
Perhaps there are ways to discuss others views (even those we consider unfounded and uninformed) without resorting to name calling which reflects more on us than them.
ChickenHawk
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