Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38

[Hammer059]

ONLY because you said reliability aside, I voted nine rounds of .380. Realistically though, I pocket carry a 642 every day, so that is obviously my real-life choice, factoring in reliability and what I'm comfortable with.

 

[MCgunner]

If youre not serious, why bother?

Ive shot all manner of targets (including clothed mannequins) trying to get as close to real as I could. Airsoft is the closest. Real people trying just as hard to shoot you, at the same time youre trying to shoot them, puts things in a totally different light.

Ive shot with a lot of people over the years too, and its amazing how flustered some people get, when they have to shoot targets other than what they normally practice on, and in a manner they dont normally shoot.

They REALLY get flustered, when you tell them to draw the gun from how they carry it, and move and shoot as they draw.

The thought of handling a loaded gun in any manner other than normal target shooting really seems to freak some people out. You'd think it was going to bite them!

Targets and how you approach them in your shooting, really does make a difference in how you shoot, and how youre likely to shoot. If all you ever do in practice, is shoot tight little groups at bullseye targets, and then call yourself competent, then youre seriously deceiving yourself. Guns like a small .380, or J frame, especially when loaded with hot carry ammo, are hard enough for many people, to shoot well with when doing so slowly and deliberately. Its usually a whole other story, when you ramp things up, and start to get a little more realistic.

Well, I know anatomy, have dissected cats to pigs to dogfish sharks to amphioxus to frogs to earth worms in school. I've shot and cleaned game for over 50 years. I know where to hit on a human, too. I don't need to get exotic with targets, just need to practice my marksmanship regularly. I know to shoot for the sternum. Might not be a good bone to place a 90 grain .380 on, but I'm confident a 158 grain +P .38 will get through and out the back side.

The targets I like when I can find them, sometimes add 'em to an order when I'm getting reloading stuff, is the ones with the BG and a gun, kinda like a picture. But, the good old B27 suffices. Heck, for that matter, a paper plate has sufficed.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MCgunner:

Well, I know anatomy, have dissected cats to pigs;;; to dogfish sharks to amphioxus to frogs to earth worms in school.

I know where to hit on a human, too. I don't need to get exotic with targets, just need to practice my marksmanship regularly.

I think it is naive at best to believe that, when a fast moving assailant at close range is in the process of trying to sack (or stick) the armed quarterback at high speed, anyone, however practiced, would be able to reliably or consistently hit anything vital through "marksmanship", without firing a number of shots very rapidly.

"Marksmanship" is a great skill, but even a skilled defender is likely to have to depend a lot on pure luck. The result will likely be largely stochastic.

Of course, if by "marksmanship" you mean the shooting of a sufficient number of rounds quickly enough anywhere you can land them in that upper chest area to provide a sufficient likelihood of hitting something vital within....

 

[BSA1]

My heavier 3 inch steel model isn't as bad, but there are many better choices.

I think tactics are a important factor to consider when choosing between the Bersa .380 and the J-frame snubby. Inside of 3 yards I think the J-Frame is the superior weapon.

I have told the story of a LEO friend that interrupted a burglary in a Pharmacy but I'll repeat it for your boredom. ;-) He responded to a burglary alarm and was checking the outside of the building by himself when he encountered the burglar coming out of the building. He caught the burglar after a short foot chase, got into a fight trying to subdue him and ended up on the ground with the burglar on top of him. Getting the losing end of the fight he drew his revolver, jammed into the attackers body and pulled the trigger ending the fight then and there.

So we are not LEO's but stats show the likelihood of CQB inside of three yards or within a arms length. Being this close makes having your gun in contact with the attackers body a big possibility. Particularly with a woman being sexually assaulted. The design of a revolver is superior as it will function with a pull of the trigger. This is especially critical advantage with follow up shots.

A semi-auto can be made not to fire if the slide is pushed slightly out of battery. In addition clothing can cause the slide not to return to full battery.

Another distinct advantage of the 38 Special (especially the +P) is the tremendous damage the fire, debris and muzzle blast does inside the human body in a contact wound.

Of course we have no choice where we have to fight as that advantage lies with the attacker.

 

[MCgunner]

I think it is naive at best to believe that, when a fast moving assailant at close range is in the process of trying to sack (or stick) the armed quarterback at high speed, anyone, however practiced, would be able to reliably or consistently hit anything vital through "marksmanship", without firing a number of shots very rapidly.

"Marksmanship" is a great skill, but even a skilled defender is likely to have to depend a lot on pure luck. The result will likely be largely stochastic.

Of course, if by "marksmanship" you mean the shooting of a sufficient number of rounds quickly enough anywhere you can land them in that upper chest area to provide a sufficient likelihood of hitting something vital within....

I think it's naive to think that hardware and firepower can make up for marksmanship skill.

I read the American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" a lot. The pages are FULL of folks who just own a gun for protection, not necessarily trained ninjas, that defend themselves from attack. It's the rule, not the exception. At least I practice my marksmanship.

I doubt William Hickok practiced on store mannequins.

 

[Derry 1946]

Why limit to 5 rounds of .38? I carry a Colt DS: 6 rounds of .38. Instead of an extra mag, I carry a 642, 5 more rounds of .38. 11 total. I'm intrigued by .380s, but to get materially more rounds than the DS, it looks like it goes to double stack. I find these unwieldy. If I'm going to carry something that thick, I may as well carry my .45 1911. XD-S gives a lot of rounds in 9 mm in a slim package. I love the concept of the 380 auto, and I'm very tempted, but I'm not convinced yet. Hoping to learn more, and this thread is helping.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MCgunner:

I think it's naive to think that hardware and firepower can make up for marksmanship skill.

Who would think that?

I read the American Rifleman's "Armed Citizen" a lot. The pages are FULL of folks who just own a gun for protection, not necessarily trained ninjas, that defend themselves from attack.

Yep. The incidents that end well get written up.

It's the rule, not the exception.

I'm not sure what that means.

At least I practice my marksmanship.

Well, so do I, but I learned some time ago that what I had been doing over the years--looking at my groups on the square range--did not teach me anything at all about what to do in a defensive situation.

I was relying far to much on precision, and I was not practiced in speed. And the latter did not come automatically.

In the first class I took, we fired one group at the outset and then dispensed with paper. From then on, the timing of the clunks on the steel was the objective. altogether

Eye opening, and it taught me a lot, but not necessarily great. It was still just shooting.

There is a substantial difference between going to the range with shooting at a target in mind and reacting instantly to what is essentially an unexpected ambush by someone about to do great harm.

A great course is the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course--also given at Gander Mountain Academies as Dynamic Focus Shooting.

Here are the topics.

Fundamentals of Defensive Shooting & Intuitive Skill Development
Combat Accuracy
Lateral Motion
The Balance of Speed & Precision
The Critical Incident Reload
Volume of Fire
Realistic Training for Multiple Target Engagement
Understanding the Body’s Natural Reactions during a Dynamic Critical Incident
The Skill Development Cycle
One Handed & Weak Handed Shooting
Non-Diagnostic Linear Malfunction Clearing
Shooting in Motion (When, How & Why)​

There is a lot more to it than shooting--there is discussion of sensory and cognitive processes, of physiological and psychological reactions to stress, of what a participant remembers and thinks he remembers after an incident, and more.

"Marksmanship"? Yes, there are some small target drills that would address stationary targets requiring great precision in, say, a hostage hostage situation, or taking out someone pointing a gun at someone else at a distance.

Most, however has to do with balancing speed and precision, using a target the size of an upper chest at varying close ranges. One does not try to try to hit a human in a particular critical part. That's because no one can see where that part is when the target is angling, bending, twisting, and moving up and down, much less hit it deliberately.

That's why I described it as a stochastic process.

The skills are taught in a layered manner--each basic by itself, and then more than one combined, and then the whole. I noted that, in the early stage of teaching shooting at a chest sized target rapidly at a fixed distance, the instructor would assess the groups, and tell one student that he or she was shooting too fast, and another, too slowly.

I strongly recommend the course.

Another one worth taking is Counter Ambush Training. There is a home study course for it.

By the way, one learns more than the skills. In my case, after getting a much better appreciation of what might occur in the event of a "dynamic critical incident", I found myself paying more attention to my surroundings--to that dumptser, to the corner of the building, and so on--as I walked back from the restaurant to the car.

No, the course does not teach "situational awareness", but after learning to react to a vey bad situation, one does tend to start practicing it.

 

[huntsman]

Why limit to 5 rounds of .38? I carry a Colt DS: 6 rounds of .38. Instead of an extra mag, I carry a 642, 5 more rounds of .38. 11 total.

I've thought seriously about carrying two LCPs, that's 14 rounds and one extra mag for a grand total 20 rounds at a weight of about 26oz (spread out in 3 places).

 

[Derry 1946]

I've thought seriously about carrying two LCPs, that's 14 rounds and one extra mag for a grand total 20 rounds at a weight of about 26oz (spread out in 3 places).

Yes, that sounds like a viable plan. The new classes of automatics, including the LCP, seem to be getting so small, so reliable, so affordable, and so powerful (with new variants of .380) that they make a "New York reload" give an extra mag a run for its money. I haven't been unhappy with my .38s, but I'm really starting to think that technology may be offering me a worthwhile upgrade. There's been a spate of robberies locally by groups of as many as 8 people. I never before felt outgunned by the bad guys, but I'm beginning to feel outnumbered. As Zane Grey said, Never insult seven men when all you're packing is a six-shooter.

 

[AStone]

KB, this is such excellent information. Thanks.

A great course is the I. C. E. PDN Combat Focus Shooting course--also given at Gander Mountain Academies as Dynamic Focus Shooting.

Here are the topics.
Fundamentals of Defensive Shooting & Intuitive Skill Development
Combat Accuracy
Lateral Motion
The Balance of Speed & Precision
The Critical Incident Reload
Volume of Fire
Realistic Training for Multiple Target Engagement
Understanding the Body’s Natural Reactions during a Dynamic Critical Incident
The Skill Development Cycle
One Handed & Weak Handed Shooting
Non-Diagnostic Linear Malfunction Clearing
Shooting in Motion (When, How & Why)
There is a lot more to it than shooting--there is discussion of sensory and cognitive processes, of physiological and psychological reactions to stress, of what a participant remembers and thinks he remembers after an incident, and more.

"Marksmanship"? Yes, there are some small target drills that would address stationary targets requiring great precision in, say, a hostage hostage situation, or taking out someone pointing a gun at someone else at a distance.

Most, however has to do with balancing speed and precision, using a target the size of an upper chest at varying close ranges. One does not try to try to hit a human in a particular critical part. That's because no one can see where that part is when the target is angling, bending, twisting, and moving up and down, much less hit it deliberately.

That's why I described it as a stochastic process.

The skills are taught in a layered manner--each basic by itself, and then more than one combined, and then the whole. I noted that, in the early stage of teaching shooting at a chest sized target rapidly at a fixed distance, the instructor would assess the groups, and tell one student that he or she was shooting too fast, and another, too slowly.

I strongly recommend the course.

Another one worth taking is Counter Ambush Training. There is a home study course for it.

By the way, one learns more than the skills. In my case, after getting a much better appreciation of what might occur in the event of a "dynamic critical incident", I found myself paying more attention to my surroundings--to that dumptser, to the corner of the building, and so on--as I walked back from the restaurant to the car.

No, the course does not teach "situational awareness", but after learning to react to a vey bad situation, one does tend to start practicing it.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, so do I, but I learned some time ago that what I had been doing over the years--looking at my groups on the square range--did not teach me anything at all about what to do in a defensive situation.

I was relying far to much on precision, and I was not practiced in speed. And the latter did not come automatically.

I don't just practice for groups bullseye style. I shoot quick draw from the hip point shoot at handshake range. I move out to 7 yards and draw and fire point shooting from isosceles ready, move out to 15 and use the sights, draw and fire for speed and accuracy. I don't have a timer, admit that I should get around to buying a timer so as to quantify my speed. I've done this all along for competition if nothing else. IDPA is a combination of accuracy and speed. I shot IDPA for 4 or 5 years, shot lots of local matches and did rather well at it. I bought a Dillon for my 9 when I was shooting IDPA, shot so much I had to cut ammo costs and speed up reloading. However, in IDPA, I never fired at handshake range, always used the sights for score. IDPA isn't real world. For real world practice, I think draw and point shoot from 3 yards or less is the most pertinent practice. THAT is likely to be the scenario, was in the only other incident where I actually had to draw my weapon...at the time, a .25 auto. I won, he ran. But, back then, there weren't a lot of carry choices and carry was illegal. I carried anyway and I'm glad I did THAT day.


What I DON'T do is run around diving prone behind trees, shoot upside down, off my back, anything stupid athletic. I'm 63 years old and not very athletic anymore. But, I feel I can adequately defend myself. I don't worry a lot about what my targets look like, B27s are fine by me. They're big enough to give a human profile and tell me when I missed the 9 ring. I'll often draw and fire double taps fast as I can. When I do that, it's usually the second round that makes the best hit. As they say, you can't shoot fast enough to miss....or however it goes.

In all this practice, I always do best with my revolvers. I can shoot just fine using sights with all my autoloaders, but it's the instinctive point shooting where I prefer the revolver. Chances are good, if I have to draw and fire it's going to be at very close range and I want the gun I shoot best on me. This is why, more often than not, I have a couple of revolvers on me, .38 in my strong side pocket, .357 magnum, 5 shot or 6, at 4 o'clock.

The OP didn't ask about .357 magnums. A 3" .357 magnum, even a 2", is a good bit hotter than either .38 or .380 or even 9x19. I'm putting out 550 ft lbs from my 2" gun, over 600 from the 3"er. I can put them in to action pretty fast and accurately, too, because I practice. But, I've thought in the future when we get open carry (Jan 1) and I no longer care about flashing a longer barrel, I might tote my 4" M10 Smith. I've won some revolver shoots with that simple old gun and it shoots well, tight action. I don't think it takes a magnum to stop a fight, just I kinda like .357 magnum, increases my testosterone which is important at my age.

 

[MCgunner]

A story I like that I read on the shotgun forum was about a young teen aged girl in North Dakota home alone. Guy breaks in, she runs to a bedroom for her dad's shotgun and loads it, ends up shooting and killing the guy. A news crew interviewed her, asked her what was going through her mind, she says, "I just thought it can't be THAT hard, target is a lot bigger than a clay pigeon."

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MCGunner:

I think draw and point shoot from 3 yards or less is the most pertinent practice. THAT is likely to be the scenario, ...

I don't think anyone will ever be able to draw and stop a charging attacker yards out. but that that shooting distance does make sense to me.

What I DON'T do is run around diving prone behind trees, shoot upside down, off my back, anything stupid athletic. I'm 63 years old and not very athletic anymore.

Agree, at 71.

...more often than not, I have a couple of revolvers on me,...

Better than one, I think.

 

[AK103K]

What I DON'T do is run around diving prone behind trees, shoot upside down, off my back, anything stupid athletic. I'm 63 years old and not very athletic anymore. But, I feel I can adequately defend myself. I don't worry a lot about what my targets look like, B27s are fine by me. They're big enough to give a human profile and tell me when I missed the 9 ring. I'll often draw and fire double taps fast as I can. When I do that, it's usually the second round that makes the best hit. As they say, you can't shoot fast enough to miss....or however it goes.

I dont do much "diving" (of any sort) anymore, but I do shoot "athletically", including every now and then, a few in the above list, and Im just a couple of months away from 61. Then again, Ive always been athletic, in both work and play, so Im still ahead of most our age, when it comes to still being able to do "stupid athletic" stuff.

I dont shoot for "score" anymore, just good hits in the right places, on demand, and as quickly as I can, and on anatomically correct targets that make you think about what and where youre shooting, not just a scoring zone on a forward facing "shape".

Shooting quickly, while moving quickly, and putting the rounds on target where you were looking while doing so, with and without sights, and without thought, is probably the most important shooting skill you can have.

As Kleanbore mentioned, your best bet, is to quickly put a number of rounds, into areas that you have the best hope, of hitting a switch. You keep doing so, until what youre shooting, is down and out too. Shoot one or two, and assess, is flawed thinking. You shoot them to the ground, and that simply takes what it takes.

If you dont condition yourself to do that in practice, youre not likely to do it for real, and especially if its the first time youre trying it.

Then try doing all that, with a pocket .380 or .38 from a "startle" draw, on just one target, and see how you do.

 

[psyopspec]

71
63
61

I'm not in your bracket, but as someone who occasionally forgets the demographic, thanks for being willing to dispense some accumulated wisdom. Whether we come to the same conclusions or not, I'm glad you guys are here.

 

[Gun Master]

Elder Flatulator

Try 13 years older than McGunner.

Also, explore axiom:
" Nine rounds of .380 PLUS five rounds of .38 ". As in Bersa + S&W 638.

Works for me.

* Hey, thinking about getting a SCCY (is that pronounced Sky or Sissy?) 9mm. What do you think? Hear it has a nasty little snap!

 

[fastbolt]

I've noticed that my knees complain a bit more in my 60's, especially when trying to rapidly kneel, go prone, rise from kneeling & prone, etc.

I remind them that it beats becoming a lead magnet.

 

[JohnBiltz]

Yeah, I hear people talking about exploding off the X, the only thing exploding off the X would be my knee. I had to go to a cane about 9 months ago.

 

[MCgunner]

* Hey, thinking about getting a SCCY (is that pronounced Sky or Sissy?) 9mm. What do you think? Hear it has a nasty little snap!

I have the gun the SCCY (pronounced "sky") is cloned from, the Kel Tec P11. I like it, have owned and carried it off and on since 1996. It's snappy, but not THAT snappy, but snappy to you might not be snappy to me or vice versa. You can tell a gun is light and powerful, though, if when you get toward the end of the magazine, it's snappier.

Sccy had a bad rep to start out, but seems to have cleaned up its act and is producing some good stuff now. This is word of mouth off the net, so take THAT for what it's worth. LOL I don't own one, no need since I have the original Kel Tec.

I've noticed that my knees complain a bit more in my 60's, especially when trying to rapidly kneel, go prone, rise from kneeling & prone, etc.

I remind them that it beats becoming a lead magnet.

My left knee slows me down and I have a bad back from 25 years ago lifting a mower. Never had it cut on, still bothers me a little, but not bad enough to justify going under the knife. The knee, well, that was my plant leg when I was flat tracking motorcycles. I got it caught in ruts and tweaked it occasionally and couldn't walk for a few days after. I blame it on that, fun times, rough sport. I've got a few mended bones, rotator cuff that mended, little of this and a little of that from flat track and road racing. And, well, I could stand to lose forty pounds. But, hey, other than that,,,,,,

 

[MCgunner]

BTW, the older and more infirm I get, the more I rely on firearms for self defense. It ain't like I'm going to be throwing a right cross, let alone any back spin kicks anymore. Hand to hand with a 30 year old thug is totally out. Even knifes take too much physical effort. I've always been afraid of knifes, anyway. You need intense physical training to fight with such tools and, well, I prefer to run for cover, however fast I can get there. Mess with me, you get a lead injection. I did used to carry pepper gas as a non-lethal option. I'm in such a low threat environment now, though, seems goofy except for trips to the big city. There are occurrences, say, an unarmed drunk, where the pepper gas would be my first choice, though.

Most of the time, I just have the little .38 Ultralight in my strong side pocket. Works for me.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by MCGunner:

I'm in such a low threat environment now, though, seems goofy except for trips to the big city.

It would seem that you are describing the likelihood of encountering trouble, and not the severity of trouble, should it occur.

And a less lethal option would always be desirable in the event, would it not?

Most of the time, I just have the little .38 Ultralight in my strong side pocket. Works for me.

The extent to which one could reasonably rely upon a .38 Ultralight would depend not upon likelihood but upon severity, in the unlikely event that a firearm would be needed, would it not?

Whether if would "work" for you remains to be seem. It might. Sometimes. It might not.

Earlier, you said this:

...more often than not, I have a couple of revolvers on me,...

A better idea.

Which is it?

 

[Zendude]

I've thought seriously about carrying two LCPs, that's 14 rounds and one extra mag for a grand total 20 rounds at a weight of about 26oz (spread out in 3 places).

Another option is to get the Bersa 380 Plus model. It gives you 15 rounds.

 

[MCgunner]

A better idea.

Which is it?

One in the pocket around the house. I add a belt gun for trips to town or to the city.

I don't even need carry at the house, but I'm sometimes needing a weapon. I shot 3 cottonmouths last year, two with the .38. I have shot hogs in the trap with it. It's a tool, after all, and useful for more'n self defense. Besides, I don't notice it in the pocket all day.

On my walks out back to check the game camera or feeder, I'll often carry my 20 gauge coach gun loaded with 7.5 in the I-C barrel and 3" 5 shot in the Mod. This is for small game I might come across. I've taken multiple squirrel and rabbit on my walks. IFI were to encounter and armed trespasser back there, I do have 3 buck and slugs in the butt cuff, but, tell ya the truth, I'm WAY more likely to need buck or slug during deer season for shooting a deer or hog. But, I mean, it's my land, and I like to carry a gun on my walks.

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercise. I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind ... Let your gun therefore be your constant companion of your walks." 1785, Thomas Jefferson.

BUT, we're WAY off the OP of .38 vs .380.

 

[greenmtnguy]

Another primarily revolver guy - I'll take the 38 Spl +P 5 shot revolver.
If I need to go with a bigger gun, or a semi auto, it will be in a caliber that starts with a '4'

 

[Derry 1946]

Another primarily revolver guy - I'll take the 38 Spl +P 5 shot revolver.
If I need to go with a bigger gun, or a semi auto, it will be in a caliber that starts with a '4'

This is kinda my thinking at the moment. If I'm thinking about larger calibre, I'm considering the Springfield XD-S .45. Comparable in size to the nines.