Nine rounds of .380 vs five rounds of .38

[psyopspec]

@ AK103K

Also, at the distances most seem to be expecting a confrontation, youre not wasting any ammo on COM shots, right?

Lets face it, pistol rounds are poor stoppers, and unless you hit the CNS, youre likely not going to see much immediate indication you even made a hit.

It sounds like you're saying it's better to shoot exclusively for the T-zone/face on multiple attackers. Is this something you've trained with airsoft, simunitions or the like? And how did it go landing hits?

 

[Deaf Smith]

If you are torn between the two, you will end up with both eventually. The question is which one to buy first.

That is the essence of the question Zen!

Now if I did pack a .380, it would be a Glock 42 9mm. I mean, what the heck...

Deaf

 

[AK103K]

It sounds like you're saying it's better to shoot exclusively for the T-zone/face on multiple attackers. Is this something you've trained with airsoft, simunitions or the like? And how did it go landing hits?

I really wasnt referring to multiple attackers at that point, although, in that case, assuming the distance was within reason (5 yards and in), the first boys likely getting it in the face. After that, whos to say, you have to see how it develops. If the opportunity presents itself, absolutely.

Mostly I was referring to close range shooting and not wasting the ammo on body shots, when the head is easily hit, even one handed, while moving, and no sights, and the results usually much more effective. Especially with rounds that tend to be questionable as far as performance goes. Of course, that assumes you practice somewhat realistically with what youre using, and its not your first try at it. Not that its a hard thing to do, practice makes better.

We used to run drills with airsoft gas guns a good bit, and I learned a lot by doing so. I havent done it in awhile, but I never found making good hits to be too difficult. Not getting hit is the challenge.

I think the way you shoot/practice, and your mindset on things, is something that is likely to make a big difference in your results, regardless what you carry/use.

From what Ive seen, most dont practice realistically, many dont practice at all, and most of us, grossly overestimate our skills, and our "accessories".

 

[JB357MAG]

I just saw a show with a real case, home invasion
and 3 shots 2 killed with a .380 by a punk thug.

Probably no training at all.

Jimmy

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by AK103K:

Mostly I was referring to close range shooting and not wasting the ammo on body shots, when the head is easily hit,...

I would not conclude that, because a CNS hit is necessary for rapid physiological stopping, any CNS hit is sufficient.

The CNS is defined as the brain and the spinal cord. But we have had many people here tell us that only part of the brain--the brain stem--actually controls breathing, cardio-vascular function, motor commands, and so on. That's a very small part of the anatomy. It is hard to hit.

Perhaps that is why every expert advises that, in a self defense situation, a defender should shoot to the upper chest, if it is exposed.

 

[MCgunner]

You are addressing the likelihood of a criminal attack, and yes, we can make some judgment about that.

But that has nothing to do with the amount of "firepower" you would need in the unlikely event that you do need "firepower". Should a criminal attack occur, whatever the likelihood may have been beforehand, you are apt to need about the same capability to defend against it.

At one time, I carried a Centennial sometimes, and a higher capability semi-auto at other times. My reasoning at the time was that on some excursions into "safe" areas, I was not as likely to need to draw the gun.

That was of course true, but it really was not relevant to the decision about what to carry. I finally realized that should I need a firearm, there was no reason to expect the need to differ very much at all.

That is a very basic tenet of risk management.

Now, if the issue is that an attack by criminals is even more unlikely on your private road than it is in most other places, you can decide whether or not to carry at all. Realistically, I have no predictable reason to carry outdoors in the daytime in my yard. It's just that should it happen, I would like to be able to do something about it, and since I carry everyone else there is not reason to take the gun on and off all the time.

A pack of wild boar? Gosh.

Back to your private road and your two neighbors. Surely you are not concerned about them. But are there property items in any of the houses or on any of the property that might desirable to a couple of desperadoes in a truck? Your home environs sound nice, but I probably would carry.

When it gets right down to it, I shoot a revolver better from defensive positions like the hip at close ranges, point shoot from isosceles ready at 7 yards, or sights farther out. I point them better, quicker, than my autos, slightly faster, and I hit more instinctively with them point shooting. I'm pretty good with my autos, though, and shot an auto for a few years in IDPA and shot my .45 in momentum games like pens and pepper popper games over the years. My reload speed isn't that good, auto or revolver, so I like carrying a NY reload and when I carry my .38 in my pocket, same spare rounds fit my .357 belt gun.

It's what I do. If you don't see the wisdom in it, I'm not going to try to convince you. i shoot a lot, range is at my back door. I've been shooting revolvers for 45 years. I just like 'em, like the inherent safety of 'em.

I HATE Glocks and not JUST because I cast my own practice bullets. I figure a ND is more likely than having to actually use one. For me, I am well armed and SAFER armed with a revolver, just the way it is for me. YMMV

 

[Kleanbore]

When it gets right down to it, I shoot a revolver better from defensive positions like the hip at close ranges, point shoot from isosceles ready at 7 yards, or sights farther out. I point them better, quicker, than my autos, slightly faster, and I hit more instinctively with them point shooting.

That's an extremely important consideration.

My reload speed isn't that good, auto or revolver, so I like carrying a NY reload and when I carry my .38 in my pocket, same spare rounds fit my .357 belt gun.

That's not a bad way to do it.

I HATE Glocks .... I figure a ND is more likely than having to actually use one. For me, I am well armed and SAFER armed with a revolver, just the way it is for me.

I don't carry a Glock either. I too am concerned about an ND.

But I cannot shoot four shots in a second into the upper chest at three to five yards with a small concealable D/A revolver. Therefore I carry a semi auto with which I can do it, and it is safer than a Glock.

 

[amd6547]

Ha ha ha, I got my G26 for $300 from someone who felt Glocks were unsafe...been shooting it and carrying it for about 5 yrs now, and it hasn't ND'd me yet.
Probably because I treat it like a loaded weapon.
Just like any other handgun I own.

 

[AStone]

But I cannot shoot four shots in a second into the upper chest at three to five yards with a small concealable D/A revolver. Therefore I carry a semi auto with which I can do it, and it is safer than a Glock.

That's what I'm thinking. Got my eye on a compact that carries 10.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I just saw a show with a real case, home invasion
and 3 shots 2 killed with a .380 by a punk thug.

Probably no training at all.

Jimmy

That was Joe Kenda.

And the two the woman shot were a) by surprise in an apartment, b) very close range, and c) unarmed.. pleading for their lives.

Deaf

 

[MyGreenGuns]

Voted for .38.
Mainly because I've never shot a .380 I liked.

 

[AK103K]

Perhaps that is why every expert advises that, in a self defense situation, a defender should shoot to the upper chest, if it is exposed.

I agree with the center of the "upper chest" if youre making body shots, but thats not "usually" what you see targeted as "COM" on most of the targets people practice and condition their response on.

I also still think that head shot will will bring about a quicker result, even with a CNS miss.

I HATE Glocks .... I figure a ND is more likely than having to actually use one.

Like or hate whatever you want, but if you have a problem with Glocks and safety, look in the mirror for the source.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by AK103K:

Like or hate whatever you want, but if you have a problem with Glocks and safety, look in the mirror for the source.

Ah, a less gentle way to phrase the time-worn and useless "the safety is between your ears" comment.

Look: Glocks have been caused to fire upon reholstering with sufficient frequency to result in the coining of the term "Glock leg".

When such incident have occurred, many people have made unhelpful comments about keeping triggers off of triggers, but in several cases, some involving LEOs, jacket drawstrings have made their way into holsters and have caused the trigger to be pulled after reholstering.

I have concerns about a wind-blown shirt tail possibly causing the same problem.

One can make righteous and snide comments blaming the shooter if it makes one feel better, but the fact that an injury may be attributable to "operator error" dos not make it less serious.

The safest way to avoid operator error is to design something in such a matter that it is difficult to operate dangerously. That's basic system engineering.

I did not have to read about any actual incidents to decide to not carry a Glock.

I carry a pistol with a grip safety.

 

[MCgunner]

I agree with the center of the "upper chest" if youre making body shots, but thats not "usually" what you see targeted as "COM" on most of the targets people practice and condition their response on.

Yeah, I shoot a lot with B27s. If you target the area on a BG that is the X ring on a B27, you gut shoot him. I just look upon the target as a target. I know to shoot mid chest, not upper abdomin. Better targets are around, but I don't get to big towns much, have to deal with Walmart. I used to use spray paint, some templates I made up out of paper tins, and freezer paper to make my own targets, were a little crude, but hey, got the job done. They were just paper, though. I guess one could buy an old mannequin from a department store if one were THAT serious about practice.

 

[MCgunner]

My only .380 is a Grendel P12. I carried it in a back pocket in a wallet type holster for s few years before Texas passed CCW legislation. It's really compact, the length and height of a LCP and only slightly fatter to allow the 11 round magazines. I have put probably 2K rounds through it. It's totally reliable with 90 grain XTPs. It's not real accurate, part of that could be the trigger, but at 25 yards, best I could ever do with it is 7" groups off the bench. My snubbies will do 3" easily from that range off a rest and are easier to shoot off hand. The Grendel has an awful DA trigger I really don't like. I can control it, but the thing starts out heavy, then ends up light. Weird. My newer Kel Tec P11 (a George Kelgren refinement) is consistent and smooth to the end of its travel, MUCH better trigger, and the gun can put those rounds into 3.5" off the bench, almost as good as my snubbies. When I do carry a pocket auto, it ain't the .380, put it that way. The P11 is down only 1 round on the P12's capacity and shoots P 9mm 115 grain XTPs at 1263 fps, only a tiny bit longer gun and 2 ounces heavier. I shoot that gun pretty well and carry it still quite often on trips. I'll either put it on the belt or take my .38 out of its Number 3 Blackhawk pocket holster and just go with the P11. .380 really doesn't do it for me anymore.

I've often thought about picking up a Taurus TCP. They're really affordable at Academy. Doubt I'd want to carry the thing, though. My system is pretty well set for carry. I prefer a more powerful gun than the .380 and the .380 isn't significantly more packable for me as I dress around my carries, not set on wearing small pocket jeans or such. I have no problem carrying a J frame in a pocket and know that I can shoot it better, place my shots and make 'em count. Revolvers and .38 special ain't the rage now days that small autos are, but I'm old and set in my ways. When I started shooting, S&W was about the only American choice in 9mm and pocket 9s were not invented, yet. Even .380s were somewhat large and heavy, called the PPK. .38 snubs were available, even airweights. So, it's what I learned to shoot. Actuallly, I learned on K frames, but got into the snubs as I matured.

 

[Praxidike]

For urban upclose and personal defense purposes that we all will face, a 380 is more than enough. I rather have the rounds and the quick reload capabilities over only 5 rounds of 38.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Look: Glocks have been caused to fire upon reholstering with sufficient frequency to result in the coining of the term "Glock leg".

People have had revolvers fire when reholstering. DA/SA autos have had such when the user forgot to decock. SA 1911s have to (the grip safety will NOT stop you from having it fire upon rehostering for you will be griping the gun as you reholster.

Get a holster that covers the trigger guard and KYFFOTFT.

I have no issues with Glocks. Used them for 20+ years in IDPA/IPSC classes, and street carry.

But if you want chamber empty, or grip safety, fine. UTU Kemosabe. To each his own.

Deaf

 

[Praxidike]

A little disingenuous on your part... With the grip and thump safety on the 1911, and with the heavier trigger on revolvers, it's less likely to accidentally/negligently shoot yourself in the leg while holstering and reholstering.

I'm sure the all of the people, some of which have had years of firearm experience and training, all shared your same, it cant ever happen to me, point of view before it happened to them...

A good holster and training will lessen the possibility, but you have to admit the the odds increase somewhat and no amount of training is going to change the fact that as human beings, we aren't perfect 100% of the time.

 

[Kleanbore]

With the grip and thump safety on the 1911, and with the heavier trigger on revolvers, it's less likely to accidentally/negligently shoot yourself in the leg while holstering and reholstering.

Yep.

The grip safety on the XD series helps, too.

A rigid holster that covers the trigger is necessity cannot keep something out of the holster when the gun is not in it. Proper precautions can help, but there is such a thing as human error.

 

[fastbolt]

When it gets right down to it, I shoot a revolver better from defensive positions like the hip at close ranges, point shoot from isosceles ready at 7 yards, or sights farther out.

Excellent consideration.

... My reload speed isn't that good, auto or revolver, so I like carrying a NY reload and when I carry my .38 in my pocket, same spare rounds fit my .357 belt gun.

Presuming the second revolver can be reached in the midst of a fast & furry situation, it does take less manipulation to get it going than to load an empty revolver and get it back running.

... I've been shooting revolvers for 45 years. I just like 'em, like the inherent safety of 'em.

Another great consideration when it comes to deciding upon a handgun carried as a dedicated defensive weapon.

...
But I cannot shoot four shots in a second into the upper chest at three to five yards with a small concealable D/A revolver. ...

Neither can I. No illusions about ever approaching Jerry's skill level with a wheel gun (or any other gun, for that matter).

I can, however, usually run one of my J-frame snubs, loaded with +P, for a "cold" drill (first drill of the range session), firing 1-handed, hip-indexed, and get 5 hits clustered within a space the size (or less) than that of my palm, at 3 yds, in 2 seconds (or less). Easier when done 2-handed, and out to 5-7 yds.

Not blazing fast, and not as fast as can be done with my assorted 1911's, 3rd gen S&W's, Glocks, 99's or M&P's, but hopefully fast & accurate enough to be useful when running a little Airweight snub and +P.

Using Magnum loads in the Airweight M&P 340's can usually slow things a bit, because of the recoil/torque effect when running Magnum loads in the lightweight snubs, but that's understandable.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by fastbolt:

I can, however, usually run one of my J-frame snubs, loaded with +P, for a "cold" drill (first drill of the range session), firing 1-handed, hip-indexed, and get 5 hits clustered within a space the size (or less) than that of my palm, at 3 yds, in 2 seconds (or less). Easier when done 2-handed, and out to 5-7 yds.

I cannot. The long, heavy trigger, short sight radius, and heavy recoil work against me.

I can do that rather easily with my carry gun, but consider that at three to five yards, putting every round in the size of a palm or less is unnecessary and means only that you are not shooting fast enough.

 

[fastbolt]

Posted by fastbolt:I cannot. The long, heavy trigger, short sight radius, and heavy recoil work against me.

It certainly takes some work to develop - and then maintain - that skillset when running a DA/DAO J-frame.

Not necessarily a skill that the average handgunner, let alone someone who carries a defensive handgun, might wish to work at doing. There are any other number of smallish pistols that can be more easily learned and used, with less effort.

I can do that rather easily with my carry gun, but consider that at three to five yards, putting every round in the size of a palm or less is unnecessary and means only that you are not shooting fast enough.

Yes, no and maybe.

I've heard and used that saying often enough myself. (First heard it as a young cop when a firearms trainer looked over my shoulder and commented about my groups on a timed silhouette shoot. He was right. He also later said that the best accuracy possible was still important, especially if the "target" was the type that exchanged gunfire with you.)

Tightening my groups serves a purpose for me, though.

It helps me determine if I'm controlling the gun, or whether the recoiling Airweight gun is controlling me. How rapidly can I run the gun and still keep control of the POI during shot strings? How fast can I push myself without loosing control?

It also means I'm able to run it producing intentionally tightly focused clustering, quickly, which might mean a smaller cluster that may be less likely to produce errant rounds which miss even hitting the intended target areas (COM/upper COM) if the intended threat target moves.

I often shift the intended POI up & down to assess whether I can index the hand/wrist independent of having to shift my body, too. Like being able to maintain an accurate "reaching motion" to the center of someone (think shaking hands with someone, as hands cross the body centerlines) while my body may be turning or shifting a bit sideways, or even while rising/lowering (stepping up/down steps, stepping over something, sitting, rising/standing, etc).

Think of it as refining different aspects of what I've learned over the years.

Admittedly, this has also been the result of the influences experienced in my pursuit of the martial arts (a 44 year endeavor this month). Fast, sloppy hand strikes may create a "flurry of motion" that might work, but not going faster than is necessary for requisite accuracy tends to produce better results. Need more speed? Do more training until you can produce smoother, unconscious movements required to perform the strike faster.

It's all a trade-off, in one way or another.

Working to run the little snubs well also has the added benefit of seeming to improve use of the larger guns, as well, while it's not often the reverse is heard said.

Now that I'm min my 60's, I'm working to keep the inevitable ravages of aging from affecting my shooting (and arts) appearing any faster than nature absolutely demands.

 

[AK103K]

I carry a pistol with a grip safety.

I carried 1911's daily for about 25+ years. Owned close to 40 of them. Had a couple that had inoperable grip safeties, right out of the box, and a few others whos grip safeties seemed to not be working after years of use. Used to find the thumb safety off at the end of the day, and on a fairly regular basis too. Best to check that stuff out on a regular basis if youre going to rely on them.

I carried SIG's for a number of years as well. Although Ive never done it myself, I have personally seen shooters reholster them without decocking.

The past number of years, Ive been carrying Glocks daily. Never had an issue with any of them, and Ive actually tried hard to see if I could get any of the scary stuff youre always told on the internet and in gun shops, that will happen to you if you carry one, and have yet to be able to have it happen. I carried a second, unloaded but cocked 17 around the house, sans holster, for about a year and a half, stuffed in my waistband, pockets, picked it up by the trigger itself, etc, etc, and have NEVER found, or caused the trigger to trip in doing so. The only way it has so far, is if I intentionally and deliberately pulled it. Did the same with a 26 as well, and with the same results.

I also draw, shoot, and reholster, loaded Glocks weekly in practice (and from concealment as I carry them), as well as in dry fire, pretty much every day. For as much as Ive done that, according to the internet odds makers, I should have shot myself a number of times by now.

Seen a lot of silly, scary, and stupid stuff over the years, and with all manner of guns, and a few other things, and pretty much every bit of it, was shooter created/related. Revolvers, autos, full autos, single shots, explosives, you pretty much name it, and every bit of it could have been prevented, if the shooter/handler, was competent and paying attention.

If youre not capable of reasonable gun handling, which is what 99.9% of all of this is about, perhaps you shouldnt be wearing or fooling with guns. Doesnt matter what the platform, make or model either.

Yeah, I shoot a lot with B27s. If you target the area on a BG that is the X ring on a B27, you gut shoot him. I just look upon the target as a target. I know to shoot mid chest, not upper abdomin. Better targets are around, but I don't get to big towns much, have to deal with Walmart. I used to use spray paint, some templates I made up out of paper tins, and freezer paper to make my own targets, were a little crude, but hey, got the job done. They were just paper, though. I guess one could buy an old mannequin from a department store if one were THAT serious about practice.

If youre not serious, why bother?

Ive shot all manner of targets (including clothed mannequins) trying to get as close to real as I could. Airsoft is the closest. Real people trying just as hard to shoot you, at the same time youre trying to shoot them, puts things in a totally different light.

Ive shot with a lot of people over the years too, and its amazing how flustered some people get, when they have to shoot targets other than what they normally practice on, and in a manner they dont normally shoot.

They REALLY get flustered, when you tell them to draw the gun from how they carry it, and move and shoot as they draw.

The thought of handling a loaded gun in any manner other than normal target shooting really seems to freak some people out. You'd think it was going to bite them!

Targets and how you approach them in your shooting, really does make a difference in how you shoot, and how youre likely to shoot. If all you ever do in practice, is shoot tight little groups at bullseye targets, and then call yourself competent, then youre seriously deceiving yourself. Guns like a small .380, or J frame, especially when loaded with hot carry ammo, are hard enough for many people, to shoot well with when doing so slowly and deliberately. Its usually a whole other story, when you ramp things up, and start to get a little more realistic.

People have had revolvers fire when reholstering. DA/SA autos have had such when the user forgot to decock. SA 1911s have to (the grip safety will NOT stop you from having it fire upon rehostering for you will be griping the gun as you reholster.

Pretty much sums it up. No matter how safe you think the gun might be, even those with all manner of safeties, the shooter will always be the weakest link, and if they are incompetent, and/or arent willing to learn and practice with what they choose to use, then things just go even more exponentially south.

Not blazing fast, and not as fast as can be done with my assorted 1911's, 3rd gen S&W's, Glocks, 99's or M&P's, but hopefully fast & accurate enough to be useful when running a little Airweight snub and +P.

I practice with my Airweights using ammo in the power range as what I carry in them, a couple of times a month. You have to if you hope to be reasonably proficient with them.

While I usually have no troubles shooting my 4" revolvers as quickly and accurately as my full size autos, the J frames are more of a challenge, and especially as the session goes on. About 50 rounds is all my hand wants to take these days, and its sore for a couple of more days after. That doesnt make it any easier. They certainly are more of an experienced shooters gun, than they are a beginner, or casual shooter.

 

[PRM]

I am particularly fond of the J frame S&Ws and currently own a Model 60, 36 3 inch & a 649. Great guns. Most days I'll have one on me. I've also owned Walthers and on occasion carry a Browning .380.

I've never felt outgunned with either .38 or .380...

But, if reloading is a constant worry, as some have put forth - just go ahead and pick up a PMR30. Nothing like 30 rounds of .22 Magnum to light up the night

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by fastbolt:

It certainly takes some work to develop - and then maintain - that skillset when running a DA/DAO J-frame

Not necessarily a skill that the average handgunner, let alone someone who carries a defensive handgun, might wish to work at doing.

I sure don't. I have impaired hand strength, tendonitis, and arthritis. Extensive shooting with a firearm that recoils a great deal and that is inherently difficult to shoot well is not for me. The cumulative result of extensive shooting with a gun that kicks is not just a few days of discomfort. It is permanent nerve damage, joint damage, and tendon damage. I don't see the point at all. My heavier 3 inch steel model isn't as bad, but there are many better choices.

There are any other number of smallish pistols that can be more easily learned and used, with less effort.

And there are some that are not "smallish", but that that are really not much larger than a J-Frame, that are easier to shoot well for just about anyone, and that have significantly more capacity.

"Well", in that context, means with the appropriate and variable balance of speed and precision, under realistic circumstances.

I still have my 642. I use it for backup only, in a weak hand pocket.