No Guns Allowed Signs

[catspa]

WA law provides at RCW 9.41.300(1b):

"In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building."

If you're required to disarm, it makes sense for them to have a safe place to store your gun while conducting business there.

Parker

 

[Mags]

Just remember the golden rule kids, "It's only illegeal if you get caught."

How is this high road?

The problem with honoring property rights is you are essentially giving up a civil right (the right to protect yourself) with no assurance that the property owner is enforcing the sign.

Your constitutional rights don't matter to me if you're in my house I'm sure buisnesses think the same way to a point.

 

[Kind of Blued]

I've never seen one in the state of Colorado. If I did I would refuse to patronize the establishment and make that known to the management, owner/proprietor of the establishment.

 

[average_shooter]

I really don't know why someone would simply ignore the sign.

The signs do not carry the "weight of law" in all states.

For example, in Minnesota it doesn't really matter if the business is posted or not. If you are carrying, and the employees find out, someone may ask you to leave. If, upon being asked, you refuse to leave they may call police. If the police show up you may be charged with trespass (in MN first offense is a simple $25 fine). Notice that is all MAY not MUST or SHALL.

Similarly, if you enter a business drunk and cause a ruckus you may be asked to leave, the cops may be called, etc etc...

Knowing this some businesses post even though they don't really care one way or another. Especially when CCW first passes in a state it may keep the "anti's" calm so there's less hassle all around. Also, all locations might be required to be posted by corporate headquarters located in CA, even though the individual location or district managers may not care or have different opinions.

 

[dmazur]

Catspa -

Unfortunately, RCW 9.41.300 (1) (b) only provides for courthouses -

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

This still leaves mental health facilities, bars and restricted access areas of commercial airports as "problems" for the CCW holder to solve in Washington State. Typically, this means locking your gun in your car. What do you do if you're using public transportation? Or a bicycle? I believe that restricted areas may be a necessary evil, but why not require them all to provide lock boxes? What is unique about courthouses?

It seems obvious that CCW laws are evolving, and hopefully don't evolve in a "negative" direction, so that the ability to protect yourself has been reduced to a shadow of the original intent.

 

[WoofersInc]

I really don't know why someone would simply ignore the sign. I mean the no firearms sign states the intent of the property owner that he or she wishes for there to be no firearms on their property. That is their right and we should respect it and take our buisness elsewhere if we do not agree. ITS THAT SIMPLE.

Actually it is not that simple.

Here in Nevada there is a pre-emption law that says "only" the state can regulate guns. The signs at the store have no legal value or weight. Why would I obey a sign that technically is illegal to begin with. There has been a lot of discussion on store owner rights since by the nature of the buisness they are open to the public.
Now if you want me to disarm at your house that is another thing entirely, and I would respect that wish inside someone's home.

 

[Cards81fan]

I ignore "No Gun" signs if concealed and if it is legal to carry there.

In WY, do you mean that is it legal to carry in these places (I assume you mean typical business, and not schools, etc...) despite the signs, or are the laws similar to OK where by definition it is illegal as a result of the signs and you carry anyway?

 

[jpwilly]

Why don't they just put up a sign that says no bad guys with guns.

I ignore no firearms signs...that's if I see them to begin with.

 

[AKElroy]

As was mentioned earlier, the Texas 30.06 sign is specifically mentioned in the law. That said, you rarely see it. I travel all over the state & only see the sign on hospitals, sports arenas & government facilities. While I honor it at government buildings & sports arenas (many have metal detectors), I cross the sign at hospitals. Several family members & friends have had health issues lately, and I have spent more time in hospital waiting rooms than I can account for. With bangers freaquently in the ER waiting for a buddy to get stitched up, (and the potential for the rival gang to pop in for a finishing attempt) hospitals can be above average on the risk-o-meter. I cross the sign at guns shows for the same reason; too many unsavories in the parking lot for me to feel comfortable unhealed. It is unsettling to see 20 ish bangers pilfering through table after table of AK's & AR's. We can ignore it if we like, but any responsible owner at any recent gun show has to admit to seeing some pretty unsaviory punks admiring the metal.

 

[springmom]

Having spent a good deal of time in the past week at Methodist I can say that I left my gun in the car. I didn't like it, but there are armed cops all over the place down in the area of the ER, at least, and the only time I was unhappy about it (apart from the principle of the thing, of course) was having to leave last Thursday night at 11 to go into the garage. OTOH, I was there with about six other families lined up at the pay machine and they do have security that will escort you if you ask.

I think if a BG had approached, as tightly wound up as I was, I'd have taken him out with my bare hands anyway, arthritis or no. Now that Archerandshooter is home and on the mend, and my adrenaline is down to normal, I think I'll go back to my normal means of defense, though

Jan

 

[evan price]

In Ohio the no guns signs have force of law, but only if posted in a conspicuous location.

In Ohio we also are required to post a sign banning smoking. The sign's dimensions, text, and pictorial information is clearly spelled out in the law for no-smoking, as well as a requirement that it be on every entrance. The CCW gun laws do not say any of that. Just "..a sign...posted in a conspicuous location."

IMHO, if it isn't as "Conspicuous" as the required no-smoking signs, then I won't spend any time trying to find them, and concealed means concealed after all.

Bear in mind I 100% respect the rights of the property owner to use their property how they choose, and it is their right to ban guns from the premises.

BUT- I am a big boy, and I understand there are penalties if I get caught violating the law- going 5mph over the speed limit, making a left turn out of a parking lot where there is a no left turns sign, and carrying a well-concealed pistol in a non-enumerated Criminal Protection Zone.

In terms of courthouses, police stations, schools- the places where it's a felony- those I obey- always!

 

[Husaberg Man]

The problem with honoring property rights is you are essentially giving up a civil right...

Property rights ARE civil rights, and are constitutionally protected. Read the 4th and 5th amendments to the US Constitution.

Regardless of whether such signs hold the weight of specific state laws (and they do here in Texas,) I'll honor their property and civil rights regardless of my disagreement.

YMMV

 

[clemsonu0219]

in nc, a posted no firearm sign only applies to open carry. A sign to prohibit concealed carry must say "no concealed weapons" and must be a certain size. I can't remember the exact statute...

 

[TiredOleMan]

If a business owner has posted a sign whether its "No Guns" or "No shoes,no shirt,no service" thats his right as the business owner. I dont know his reasoning & dont care, if I need to use his place I follow his rules thats just the way I look at things. Having a CCW permit doesnt give me the right to do otherwise.

 

[Just One Shot]

In Ohio you can lose your CC permit if found guilty of CCing in a posted establishment.

I do one of 2 things.

1. Leave and don't go back.
2. If I have to go there I go back and lock my CCW in my car safe.

Because of these signs I purchased some of these:

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/Gun-Stuff-Mall#ngnm

I leave one behind with the manager or owner to let them know 1. They are denying me my rights, 2. They are loosing business. and 3. They are inviting criminals to rob them.

Statement from the web site:

You can inform business owners that they have lost your business by simply handing them one of our "No Guns No Money" cards. On the back, the card explains that a "no gun" sign is bad for business and actually invites bad guys.

One thing to remember is the sign must be posted at ALL entrances. If they are not and you carry in through one of the unposted doors then you should be protected because they failed to properly notify the public of their decision.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I'll abide by the signs, but only if they're perfect.

In SC, the signs have to meet very stringent requirements, or they may legally be ignored. The only one I've ever seen correct is at a Santee Cooper Power Company door.

Went to the movies the other night. 11pm movie, means we gotta walk through the parking lot at 1AM... I'm carrying no matter what. However, I noticed something didn't look right with their sign, so I pulled up applicable state law on my blackberry... sure enough, the sign was perfect (Letter heighth, letter width, gunbusters sign)... except it was in white text, and the law clearly states that it must be in black.

I left the state law webpage up on my phone on the off chance the county cop working security saw me print or something and decided to hassle me. "Yer sir, I'm carrying legally with a permit. No sir, I didn't see a sign saying I couldn't. Oh, that sign? I didn't even notice it. Aren't they supposed to be black, so people can see them? Oh yes they are. Here's the state legislative webpage clearly defining signage requirements."

 

[hankdatank1362]

Here's the Requirements for SC:

Originally posted by South Carolina State Legislature

SECTION 23-31-235. Sign requirements. [SC ST SEC 23-31-235]

(A) Notwithstanding any other provision of this article, any requirement of or allowance for the posting of signs prohibiting the carrying of a concealable weapon upon any premises shall only be satisfied by a sign expressing the prohibition in both written language interdict and universal sign language.

(B) All signs must be posted at each entrance into a building where a concealable weapon permit holder is prohibited from carrying a concealable weapon and must be:

(1) clearly visible from outside the building;

(2) eight inches wide by twelve inches tall in size;

(3) contain the words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED" in black one-inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(4) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle seven inches in diameter with a diagonal line that runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal;

(5) a diameter of a circle; and

(6) placed not less than forty inches and not more than sixty inches from the bottom of the building's entrance door.

(C) If the premises where concealable weapons are prohibited does not have doors, then the signs contained in subsection (A) must be:

(1) thirty-six inches wide by forty-eight inches tall in size;

(2) contain the words "NO CONCEALABLE WEAPONS ALLOWED" in black three- inch tall uppercase type at the bottom of the sign and centered between the lateral edges of the sign;

(3) contain a black silhouette of a handgun inside a circle thirty-four inches in diameter with a diagonal line that is two inches wide and runs from the lower left to the upper right at a forty-five degree angle from the horizontal and must be a diameter of a circle whose circumference is two inches wide;

(4) placed not less than forty inches and not more than ninety-six inches above the ground;

(5) posted in sufficient quantities to be clearly visible from any point of entry onto the premises.

 

[Turbobuddha]

Here in Kansas, there are exact requirements for a sign to be used by business who wish to restrict the lawful carry of concealed firearms. It's a misdemeanor to carry past such signs. As for the non compliant signs, the business has stated it's intent and I take by business elsewhere. If it's a place I really want to go, I'll disarm and/or speak with the owner/manager about the purpose of the sign and their true intent.

After we got CCH here in KS, there were/are a lot of people who misunderstand the law and the signage. Some thing anyone, including murders and rapist, can simply grab a gun and carry it. Well, they can, just not legally. A good point to get across to those that post. Many also believe the sign means no firearms. I just explain to them it means no lawful conceal carry. There is, to my knowledge, no additional penalties for someone who is not licensed to carry past past the gunbuster. Only those with a license. Of course, carrying with a license past the sign is still less of an issue than the illegally concealed handgun.

The lawful sign is the one with the beretta silhouette with the red circle/line no sign.

 

[razorback2003]

A sign that is specifically worded and posted in TN that is prominently displayed is a $500.00 fine. I have yet to see somewhere with PROPER signs. I have heard that the police usually ask those who mistakingly walk past proper signs to just take their handgun back to the car...no fine.

Signs not properly worded in TN do not mean anything. "No guns" mean nothing and can be ignored. I can open or conceal carry with a permit, but always conceal to avoid any sign problems. I like to go unnoticed.

 

[chuckusaret]

IMO any business that has a sign "NO GUNS" should be required to provide a place to secure your weapon. I also believe a shop owner that does have a "NO GUNS" sign posted could be sued in the event you are robbed or assaulted injured by a BG while in his store. Reason: He has deprived you of your right of self protection by not allowing you to CC in his store and has taken full responsibility to provide adequate protection for all patrons.

 

[catspa]

Dmazur, you are correct. The lock boxes at my county courthouse work just fine, and I'd like to see other facilities provide them as well. Here, the courtrooms and associated offices are on the second floor, and all the other county offices are on the first floor or in the basement.

Interestingly, some years ago, the (then) sheriff or someone in his dept. decided to post "guns prohibited" signs at the building entrances, implying that the entire building was a gun-free zone. I and another citizen scheduled an appointment with him and politely pointed out what the law actually stated, and the next day the signs were moved to the stairwells and elevators leading to the second floor.

Parker

 

[Rockwell1]

IMO any business that has a sign "NO GUNS" should be required to provide a place to secure your weapon.

But doesn't that bring up another whole set of issues on it's own? I'm not sure I want to trust Wally World with my gun

 

[JustinW]

in nc, a posted no firearm sign only applies to open carry. A sign to prohibit concealed carry must say "no concealed weapons" and must be a certain size. I can't remember the exact statute...

clemsonu0219, can you provide more information. This thread got me looking at the NC statutes and I saw this:

A [Conceal Carry] permit does not authorize a person to carry a concealed handgun ... where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.

at http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/ByArticle/Chapter_14/Article_54B.html.

That was all that I saw regarding "No Gun" signage in NC and my (personal, non lawyer) interpretation of that is it only applies to concealed carry. You should be able to open carry in stores with a "No Guns" sign and be fine legally, but they can ask you to leave. Also I see no specifics as to the details of the sign which you suggested was codified in law.

And to answer the OPs question: Since I only Open Carry ATM (No CC permit yet) I avoid places as best as possible if I know they don't like OCers (either through the use of a sign or a conversation with management) and disarm if I have to go there. If I CCed I don't know what I'd do, probably carry anyway, but then again I haven't been put in that position yet.

 

[Owen Sparks]

It is important to remember that the Bill of Rights is a list of restriction on GOVERNMENT. That means that the government can't infringe on your right to free speech, to peaceably assemble, or the right to worship as you please.

That does NOT mean that you have a right to speak freely in the movie theater or peaceably assemble in your bosses office or hold a church service in the lobby of the bank.

The right to bear arms on privately owned property is no different. It is still subject to the rules made by the property owner. This is a property rights issue NOT a 2A issue.

 

[catspa]

Owen, I see your point and agree with it partway. However, I happen to believe that when business owners incorporate, they tie the status of their corporations to government in such a way that the provisions of the BOR should extend to them as well. They are no longer acting as private citizens, on an equal basis with others.

Parker