yesit'sloaded
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May we help you.
Papers Please!
Can you tell the police from the paramilitary forces?
no need to carry anymore...
- Thread starter SamTuckerMTNMAN
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May we help you.
Papers Please!
Can you tell the police from the paramilitary forces?
BobbyQuickdraw
Member
I for one am not putting any blame on the officers. They didn't come up with and implement this. This was a political or bureaucratic decision somewhere.
And I think the Nazi thing isn't always a great argument. The cops are doing what they're told and before someone says "So were the SS" don't forget that cops and soldiers are supposed to follow orders. Disobeying an order isn't some casual decision, it becomes a big deal.
So if some captain is like "Get all tactical and pop out at Giant Stadium and look badass" the cop is like "Ok."
That being said, I don't necessarily think what's going on is a good thing. In war, the difference between a soldier and a terrorist is often just a uniform. Clearly identified combatants.
If the cops strip themselves of all identification, what should the citizens be thinking? Are they cops or some bad guys right out of Die Hard?
And I think the Nazi thing isn't always a great argument. The cops are doing what they're told and before someone says "So were the SS" don't forget that cops and soldiers are supposed to follow orders. Disobeying an order isn't some casual decision, it becomes a big deal.
So if some captain is like "Get all tactical and pop out at Giant Stadium and look badass" the cop is like "Ok."
That being said, I don't necessarily think what's going on is a good thing. In war, the difference between a soldier and a terrorist is often just a uniform. Clearly identified combatants.
If the cops strip themselves of all identification, what should the citizens be thinking? Are they cops or some bad guys right out of Die Hard?
Rich K
Member
Makes me glad I don't live in NYC.
And I am more scared of the police than terrorists. Just my .02.
And I am more scared of the police than terrorists. Just my .02.
yesit'sloaded
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If they have the identification are they just terrorists in with police patches? Both of my grandfathers never saw the need to terrorize people when they were LEOs. Of course that was back in the day when people were not afraid of the police. Most LEOs I try to talk to treat me like a lower-than-thou commoner. This has been a change that I can remember. When I was five every day an officer drove through the neighborhood and we would wave at him or chat for a while about what was going on in the neighborhood. When I was twelve we had a car stolen and the police came over and checked it out. They actually got out of their cars and looked around. When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses. Around seventeen I met a good cop and probably saw him every other day as he would stop and chat when he would stop on patrol (I worked at a business with a lot of expensive merchandise). I personally saw him save a guy's life after the guy had an epileptic seizure while driving. The problem is that he is a shining light in a dark place. The good guys are out there and I respect them. But for every one of them it seems there is a bad one as well as a decent one that covers for the bad one, which is just as bad if not worse as it continues the pattern.
SSN Vet
Member
so... how exactly is this going to prevent the car bomb in the underground parking lot from going off?
or... how is it going to prevent five men of middle eastern decent between the ages of 20 and 45 from hijacking a 747 (with their fists and shoe strings) and flying it into the building.
this is all about one thing and one thing only....
POLITICS....
playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".
or... how is it going to prevent five men of middle eastern decent between the ages of 20 and 45 from hijacking a 747 (with their fists and shoe strings) and flying it into the building.
this is all about one thing and one thing only....
POLITICS....
playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".
yesit'sloaded
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It is also desensitizing the public to heavily armed patrols. Random arrests will follow, dissenters will be declared terrorists, those of us that would have made a stand realize it is too late, and we will lose everything this country was supposed to be.
Sistema1927
Member
Another reason not to visit New York. (Of course, this is coming soon to a town near you.)
Would any of this have prevented 9/11?
What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?
Would any of this have prevented 9/11?
What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?
quote:
It is also desensitizing the public to heavily armed patrols. Random arrests will follow, dissenters will be declared terrorists, those of us that would have made a stand realize it is too late, and we will lose everything this country was supposed to be.
Didn't realize you were a psychic, could you tell me the winning lottery numbers for tommorow night?
Quote:
When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses.
I'm sorry for what happened to your father but do you think perhaps the cops that responded to your call were just lazy cops. Maybe it was a mixup at the dispatchers that relayed the wrong message? I don't see a direct correlation between attitude and uniform. When they showed up did they bash your head in like the Nazis you alluded to earlier?
Quote:
Around seventeen I met a good cop and probably saw him every other day as he would stop and chat when he would stop on patrol (I worked at a business with a lot of expensive merchandise). I personally saw him save a guy's life after the guy had an epileptic seizure while driving. The problem is that he is a shining light in a dark place.
This cop you met must have been wearing the "Brute Squad" outfit since you said it was after most departments switched uniforms. I'm surprised he was that friendly to you and didn't bash your skull in. Did he scare you with his tactical outfit?
You are reaching with many of your arguments. You're saying if A happens then B and C WILL FOLLOW without chance. Let me reiterate my position on this topic..
I THINK THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY AND MANPOWER AND IS NOTHING MORE THAN A RIDICULOUS SHOW OF FORCE THAT WILL NOT DETER TERRORISM
Once again, I'm still waiting for these cops to summarily execute someone on the streets. Given it's been about 5 years since the program was implemented, I can't see that happening. I grew up in NYC, live here, and work in one of the least desirable neighborhoods in the 5 boroughs. I think I can comment on the politics behind this whole program with some sort of authority than someone from San Diego. It is not about scaring the public or "terrorizing" them but as
SSN Vet so eloquently put it:
this is all about one thing and one thing only....
POLITICS....
playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".
And that's what its all about.
Quote:
Would any of this have prevented 9/11?
Of course not, but what did you personally do to prevent 9/11?
Quote:
What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?
What if they hijack another plane and repeat 9/11? What if this and what if that...
A whole bunch of what if questions. It is not a question of what if the terrorists attack again but rather WHEN. Hell, what if Iran decides to say screw America and start to give away their enriched uranium?
It is also desensitizing the public to heavily armed patrols. Random arrests will follow, dissenters will be declared terrorists, those of us that would have made a stand realize it is too late, and we will lose everything this country was supposed to be.
Didn't realize you were a psychic, could you tell me the winning lottery numbers for tommorow night?
Quote:
When I was sixteen my dad got mugged at gunpoint in the front yard. Cops didn't show up for thirty minutes. Didn't seem to care when they did. It was around that time that some of the department switched to a more "tactical" uniform. Shaved head, bloused boots, web belt, all black, and sunglasses.
I'm sorry for what happened to your father but do you think perhaps the cops that responded to your call were just lazy cops. Maybe it was a mixup at the dispatchers that relayed the wrong message? I don't see a direct correlation between attitude and uniform. When they showed up did they bash your head in like the Nazis you alluded to earlier?
Quote:
Around seventeen I met a good cop and probably saw him every other day as he would stop and chat when he would stop on patrol (I worked at a business with a lot of expensive merchandise). I personally saw him save a guy's life after the guy had an epileptic seizure while driving. The problem is that he is a shining light in a dark place.
This cop you met must have been wearing the "Brute Squad" outfit since you said it was after most departments switched uniforms. I'm surprised he was that friendly to you and didn't bash your skull in. Did he scare you with his tactical outfit?
You are reaching with many of your arguments. You're saying if A happens then B and C WILL FOLLOW without chance. Let me reiterate my position on this topic..
I THINK THIS IS A WASTE OF MONEY AND MANPOWER AND IS NOTHING MORE THAN A RIDICULOUS SHOW OF FORCE THAT WILL NOT DETER TERRORISM
Once again, I'm still waiting for these cops to summarily execute someone on the streets. Given it's been about 5 years since the program was implemented, I can't see that happening. I grew up in NYC, live here, and work in one of the least desirable neighborhoods in the 5 boroughs. I think I can comment on the politics behind this whole program with some sort of authority than someone from San Diego. It is not about scaring the public or "terrorizing" them but as
SSN Vet so eloquently put it:
this is all about one thing and one thing only....
POLITICS....
playing on peoples fears and making a statement that you're "doing something".
And that's what its all about.
Quote:
Would any of this have prevented 9/11?
Of course not, but what did you personally do to prevent 9/11?
Quote:
What if the terrorists mimic this, and drive up in their own unmarked van full of jihadists in similar gear?
What if they hijack another plane and repeat 9/11? What if this and what if that...
A whole bunch of what if questions. It is not a question of what if the terrorists attack again but rather WHEN. Hell, what if Iran decides to say screw America and start to give away their enriched uranium?
Sistema1927
Member
K9 PO,
You have already conceded that none of this is doing any good. I would argue that it is turning our Country into a police state.
Why should we be happy with our tax dollars being used to militarize our police forces? I assume that "K9 PO" means that you are a K9 Police Officer, and for that I applaud you. However, please don't succumb to the current level of thinking in some law enforcement circles that police officers need to become paramilitary in order to be effective in their jobs.
You have already conceded that none of this is doing any good. I would argue that it is turning our Country into a police state.
Why should we be happy with our tax dollars being used to militarize our police forces? I assume that "K9 PO" means that you are a K9 Police Officer, and for that I applaud you. However, please don't succumb to the current level of thinking in some law enforcement circles that police officers need to become paramilitary in order to be effective in their jobs.
Sistema,
I personally believe cops should not be fighting this war on terror as that is a task best suited to our alphabet soup agencies and armed forces. While you argue that this initiative is turning the country into a police state, I argue it has to do with the politics of NYC and nothing else. Its a dog any pony show.
I believe LE should follow orders and have an established chain of command but as to walking the streets with heavy weapons or dressed like military operators? Nah, its hard enough eating a donut with all this equipment around my waist, I don't need an M4 slung across my chest.
Some of my best work was done in plainclothes...I ruffled too many feathers and they saddled me with a dog and uniform. So to answer your question, no we don't need to be paramilitary to do our jobs effectively but I don't think local law enforcement should hunt terrorists unless theres a clear indication that they are in our jurisdiction.
I personally believe cops should not be fighting this war on terror as that is a task best suited to our alphabet soup agencies and armed forces. While you argue that this initiative is turning the country into a police state, I argue it has to do with the politics of NYC and nothing else. Its a dog any pony show.
I believe LE should follow orders and have an established chain of command but as to walking the streets with heavy weapons or dressed like military operators? Nah, its hard enough eating a donut with all this equipment around my waist, I don't need an M4 slung across my chest.
Some of my best work was done in plainclothes...I ruffled too many feathers and they saddled me with a dog and uniform. So to answer your question, no we don't need to be paramilitary to do our jobs effectively but I don't think local law enforcement should hunt terrorists unless theres a clear indication that they are in our jurisdiction.
Sistema1927
Member
I like your sense of humor.
Stay safe.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I don't think it's right to equate cops and soldiers when it comes to following orders. Soldiers aren't sent home on paid administrative leave if they disobey an order or shoot the wrong people. A soldier can't say "this is going too far, here's my badge. I quit".
I don't know how far these tacticool guys would go for their paycheck. The cops in N.O. went pretty far. Some things are more important than your job.
Scared? Good. Mission accomplished. If terrorists aren't scared of an M1 Abrams or a Blackhawk cruising their neighborhood they ain't going to be scared of cops with short shotguns and poodle shooters.
I hope you are right. We shall see.
On the bright side...I bet a large percentage of THR members would look a lot like those guys in a bug-out situation
littlegator
Member
Don't worry, those are just the Extreme Shock ammo guys marketing their wares.
Ragnar Danneskjold
Member
Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
Quote:
Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.
Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.
Quote:
Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.
Also consider that yesitsloaded was only 16 at the time. I am pretty sure that cops don't let people in on every detail of their job, especially kids. Just because some 16 year old doesn't personally observe the police doing their job, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.
When we use necessary force to subdue a violent felon, some accuse us of excessive force. Others want us to shoot of an arm or leg if we have a gun aimed at us. Truth be told, there are some impossible standards out there to measure up to such as yesitsloaded's. He alludes to the fact that in his grandfathers age, police didn't "terrorize" people. IIRC, Cops were very brutal back in the day . Stories of shinbone alley are not uncommon. Drinking on duty, gambling, etc. Policing has evolved. You don't believe me and still have this wonderful view of cops in your grandfathers age, see Miranda V. Arizona, Tenn. V. Garner and other SC rulings prohibiting 4th and 8th amendment violations by the police. I'm calling a spade a spade and those are the facts.
ServiceSoon
Member
+1
+2
average_shooter
Member
Emphasis added. Um, you seem to be contradicting yourself here...
Been on an airplane lately?
Do you have a job?
Bank account?
Mortgage?
Car Insurance?
Health Insurance?
Driver's license?
Last time I was at the doctor, I left the SSN line blank.
When I left and was paying, I noticed that the nice lady was filling out my SSN for me. Anybody know how she got it? Little wonder that it's so easy to steal someones identity. Our government created the means to make it possible. And forces you to use everywhere you go.
yesit'sloaded
Member
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I'm pretty sure not even getting out of the car counts as lazy. We later found the wallet on our own as the guy had dropped it four blocks away. I already said not all LEOs are bad, but that there are enough good ones that stand by to make it look as if they are all bad. Then again I am from Jackson, Mississippi. As of right now the county sheriff is also the police chief because the last one got fired.
The Gunman
Member
Did I see a swastika on his shoulder?
Seems to be the exact reason the framers penned "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"A well regulated militia,..."=A properly working and practiced group able to defend freedom.
"...,being necessary to the security of a free state,..."=Must exist for freedom to exist.
"...the right of the people..."=An ability that can not be taken away, not a privilege, belonging to those who comprise said state.
"...to keep and bear arms..."=To posess and carry weapons.
"...shall not be infringed."=Is not to be prohibited, restricted, or denied.
Hell, I'm no English Professor or Lawyer and I can understand what this means. I am pretty sure the framers intended this right as a safeguard against tyrranical police states as well.
Seems to be the exact reason the framers penned "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."
"A well regulated militia,..."=A properly working and practiced group able to defend freedom.
"...,being necessary to the security of a free state,..."=Must exist for freedom to exist.
"...the right of the people..."=An ability that can not be taken away, not a privilege, belonging to those who comprise said state.
"...to keep and bear arms..."=To posess and carry weapons.
"...shall not be infringed."=Is not to be prohibited, restricted, or denied.
Hell, I'm no English Professor or Lawyer and I can understand what this means. I am pretty sure the framers intended this right as a safeguard against tyrranical police states as well.
"The response we usually get is, 'Holy s---!'" Nieves says. "That's the reaction we want. We are in the business of scaring people--we just want to scare the right people."
"Quick Sergeant Pulaski, get out the terror meter and see if the fear quota has been reached!"
Just shows me we haven't done diddly @#$@ to lower the threat level in this country, if the powers that be in NYC feel they have to wield such a blunt, inefficient instrument on the local populace.
jm
"Quick Sergeant Pulaski, get out the terror meter and see if the fear quota has been reached!"
Just shows me we haven't done diddly @#$@ to lower the threat level in this country, if the powers that be in NYC feel they have to wield such a blunt, inefficient instrument on the local populace.
jm
New York City in the aftermath of the terrorist attacks of 9/11 received billions of dollars from the Feds. In the ensuing years, NYC continues to receive money from the Feds for anti-terror campaigns. Unfortunately, the money is being used to pad overtime for POLICE to issue summons for violations in order to generate revenue for the city. It is all a numbers game. By depicting NYC as a major terrorist target (and it is, where else in the US have middle eastern islamofacists attacked twice? not to mention it is still the de facto financial capital of the world), Mayor Doomberg will ensure we get that federal money to generate income.
This is not a plan for a police state. You need to understand the dynamics of NYC politics. Democrat Bloomberg will never stand for a police state...NYC has not had a mayor that is a TRUE CONSERVATIVE MAYOR in ages. Do you really think a liberal mayor wants to see his police empowered any more? This is a mayor that doesn't want anyone carrying guns and begrudgingly allows his own police to not carry off duty much less on duty.
All this talk about a police state...maybe it'll be more likely to happen elsewhere.
NYC = 9 Million Residents
4 boroughs out of 5 vote Democrat. The lone borough of Staten Island consists of mostly Republicans is less then a million residents....
This is not a plan for a police state. You need to understand the dynamics of NYC politics. Democrat Bloomberg will never stand for a police state...NYC has not had a mayor that is a TRUE CONSERVATIVE MAYOR in ages. Do you really think a liberal mayor wants to see his police empowered any more? This is a mayor that doesn't want anyone carrying guns and begrudgingly allows his own police to not carry off duty much less on duty.
All this talk about a police state...maybe it'll be more likely to happen elsewhere.
NYC = 9 Million Residents
4 boroughs out of 5 vote Democrat. The lone borough of Staten Island consists of mostly Republicans is less then a million residents....
Autolycus
Member
Just like the Olympic bombing? Sorry but your wrong in that CCW will solve terrorism. It may help but I doubt your anecdote has any real merit to it.
It doesnt matter in the case of bombings. this is nothing but a show of force to subject citizens to this kind of police display. Siglite was right in his initial post in this thread. Count me as a tinfoil hatter.
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