Owen Sparks
member
- Joined
- May 27, 2007
- Messages
- 4,523
I am lucky enough to live in a state that has a relitive high number of people with CCW permits. That makes it unlikely that anyone would care, including the police if your pistol printed.
NYPD "How to spot a hidden handgun"
- Thread starter silicosys4
- Start date
- Status
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I'd wager that the number is far greater than you'd suspect.
Oh, yeah.
Based on?
Neverwinter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2008
- Messages
- 1,049
You can look at the unsafe abortion fatality numbers of countries where abortion is illegal. If you make something like that against the law, people have to choose whether they follow the law or take personal responsibility in acting to protect their well-being. Some will choose the latter.
What are those numbers?
Neverwinter
Member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2008
- Messages
- 1,049
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/12/world/12abortion.html
About 67,000 women a year based on 2007 data.
RBid
Member
Personal anecdote:
I once walked into a county sheriff's office to ask a question of curiosity. I was carrying a Walther PPQ IWB at 4:30, in a Blackhawk! Inside the Pants holster, wearing a tshirt and shorts. While there, I got into a conversation with a few LEOs. On the way out, I saw a "no loaded handguns"/non-LE sign.
None of the trained observers... observed. I assume they would have spoken up. I may be mistaken.
I once walked into a county sheriff's office to ask a question of curiosity. I was carrying a Walther PPQ IWB at 4:30, in a Blackhawk! Inside the Pants holster, wearing a tshirt and shorts. While there, I got into a conversation with a few LEOs. On the way out, I saw a "no loaded handguns"/non-LE sign.
None of the trained observers... observed. I assume they would have spoken up. I may be mistaken.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Based on the fact that people have been carrying concealed handguns since handguns first appeared. Based on the fact that "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" isn't a new concept.
Even in the American west...and the typical town laws that forbade the carrying of firearms...people still carried "hideout" weapons. That's what the Derringer and the pocket model revolvers were designed for...and the reason that small framed "Snub-Nose" revolvers are still popular. Decades ago, the .25 caliber Baby Browning and the .32 caliber Model 1903 Colt Pocket Model sold like hotcakes. There was a reason for that.
Or do you really believe that nobody ever dared to go armed before the government started agreeing to grant permission?
Really?
I have and sometimes carry a "snub-nos" revolver...and it isn't because carrying it is illegal. "Snub-nose" revolvers are still popular, mostly, because they are small, easy to carry, reliable, and sufficiently powerful with the right ammunition. I know lots and LOTS of people who have them, and carry them, where perfectly legal.
It sounds like you are basing this all on speculation. What makes your speculation so good?
I speculate that very few people carry regularly carry concealed handguns in New York City, and, especially that VERY few people who legally own handguns (not gang bangers or drug dealers or lifetime/professional criminals, basically) regularly carry concealed handguns in New York. Why do I believe that? Because it's a felony that can land you in prison for more than a year on the first offense, and in my experience most people go to great lengths to avoid that kind of risk. Because I very rarely hear about otherwise law abiding people getting hooked for carrying gun OR otherwise law abiding people using a gun to defend themselves. Because even in boards where people openly discuss, if not wink-wink nudge-nudge, breaking the law and carrying anyway, I never recall anybody doing that in regards to NYC.
Straw man.
I disagree with the assertion that the number of people carrying in NYC (otherwise law abiding individuals) is a lot higher than we might think.
Don't put words in my mouth and claim that I am saying "nobody ever dared".
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
How do you figure that? I know men of advanced age that have carried their whole adult lives. One gentleman in his 90s carried daily, and his wife of over 60 years never even knew that he owned a pistol.
And I still think you'd be surprised...maybe even shocked...if you knew how many do it. People aren't nearly as compliant as you think they are, especially when it comes to personal security. Just look at how many "otherwise law-abiding citizens" consumed alcohol during Prohibition...or the number of "otherwise law-abiding citizens" who smoke marijuana regularly. Civil Disobedience is an old American tradition.
I never claimed anything. I asked you if you believed it.
bigfatdave
Member
Most places that prohibit personal defense tools are amazingly incompetent when it comes to actually excluding those tools.
People in NYC and Chicago are carrying. They're quiet about it, don't draw attention, and get away with it because they have good concealment practices and because the local PDs aren't looking for guns (at least not looking for guns on the person of respectable members of the public)
Unenforceable laws tend to be ignored.
People in NYC and Chicago are carrying. They're quiet about it, don't draw attention, and get away with it because they have good concealment practices and because the local PDs aren't looking for guns (at least not looking for guns on the person of respectable members of the public)
Unenforceable laws tend to be ignored.
I wouldn't go so far as to call it "unenforceable".
Yes, it is possible to do a good job of hiding your violation of the law.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Warp...Well...I guess you can believe whatever you want to, but let me ask
you a question. Think about it a little.
Why do you think that...from the latter part of the 19th century to
the present day...there has always been a strong market for small,
easily-concealed handguns?
Hint: People didn't buy those little guns because they were cute. Mostly, they bought'em to carry...concealed.
you a question. Think about it a little.
Why do you think that...from the latter part of the 19th century to
the present day...there has always been a strong market for small,
easily-concealed handguns?
Hint: People didn't buy those little guns because they were cute. Mostly, they bought'em to carry...concealed.
LongTimeGone
Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2011
- Messages
- 152
A month or do ago, I was carrying my Kahr PM9 in my Mika holster in the front pocket of my cargo shorts while dropping off my grandson for Pop Warner football.
I have arthritis in my right (carry side) hip and need a replacement but have put it off.
Anyway, walking in the sand made my hip hurt and while I was gimping my way back to the truck one of the LEOs who coach the team noticed my gait and the bulge in my pocket.
He looked straight at it and IMO knew what it was.
He got a momentary crease in his forehead and walked on by.
That was the only time in a couple of years of carrying I felt made.
edit: I'm in FL BTW
Last edited:
There is a strong market for M4 pattern rifles, too. Doesn't mean there are many of them in New York City.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Well...M4 rifles are a bit difficult to conceal unless one wears an oversized trenchcoat.
I'm not sure if you are being serious or trolling me.
I never said anything about carrying a rifle.
It is easier to hide a rifle in your home than it is to hide a handgun on your person in pubic. IMO and IME, anyway.
And I'll wager that very, very few people in NYC own/possess an M4 pattern rifle, such as is very popular right now.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yeah, I know. I figured that if you were gonna compare apples to oranges, I might as well play along.
Pocket pistols vs semi-auto rifles. Yeah. I can see the connection.
And you called my points a straw man argument?
I'm gonna try one more time.
The proliferation of small easy to conceal handguns that were designed and marketed for the purpose of discreet carry suggests strongly that they were most often carried. These aren't recreational firearms. They were intended for a specific purpose.
This has been in effect for over 130 years. (Marketing 101. If there's no demand, there will be no production.)
The reason that people wanted small, easy to conceal handguns was so they could carry more easily without being caught.
Given the crime rates in NYC and other large population centers...a lot of people wanted the extra security that comes with carrying a gun in those cities.
Given the sheer number of small, easy to conceal handguns sold in the last 130 years...it sorta stands to reason that a good many people who live and have lived in NYC, LA, Chicago, etc. have bought them for the express purpose of carrying them...regardless of the illegalities involved...and they did, and they do. Bet on it.
I never said that 2 or 3 million of NYC residents carry guns. I said that you might be surprised at the number of otherwise law-abiding citizens that do it every day. Yeah. Some of'em get caught. Most don't. They go about their business and keep their noses clean, and that's why they don't get caught...just like the literally millions of people who carried concealed handguns in violation of law all over the country for 100+ years before the states started to issue carry permits...and were never caught.
The average Joe just ain't as compliant as you think...in New York City or Muscle Shoals, Alabama.
Here's another little tidbit. Of all the people who have applied for CCW permits, probably half of'em were already carrying and had been for years. They're just legal now.
You argued that a particular type of firearm being popular indicated that people were illegally using them in NYC.
I believe it is apt to look at a different popular type of firearm and it's illegal use (or lack thereof) in NYC.
I don't buy that because carryable firearms are popular in Indiana and South Dakota, people in NYC are illegally carrying them.
I think that the distinct lack of everyday citizens using concealed firearms for defending themselves from all that crime speaks to the lack of everyday citizens carrying concealed firearms.
Why do we basically never hear of them defending themselves with these firearms?
It stands to reason that if a fair amount of citizens are carrying concealed guns in a city with such a huge population with a lot of crime, and a lot of violent crime, there are going to be cases where these firearms, concealed by toherwise law abiding citizens, are used. Where are these cases?
Any examples, citations, evidence, etc?
Where are those numbers/examples? NYC residents, please.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I guess you can believe what you want to, Warp. I'm done.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
No. Just a knowledge of human nature and observations of the number of men who have carried guns their whole lives. Other than their accents, men in New York aren't really all that different from men in North Carolina or Georgia.
All the people that I've known for years who have applied for permits were already carrying long before NC became a Shall Issue state. Many haven't applied for a permit...but they still carry.
But, if it makes you feel better to believe that there are only a handful of people living in New York City who carry concealed weapons as a matter of course, don't let me bust your bubble.
All the people that I've known for years who have applied for permits were already carrying long before NC became a Shall Issue state. Many haven't applied for a permit...but they still carry.
But, if it makes you feel better to believe that there are only a handful of people living in New York City who carry concealed weapons as a matter of course, don't let me bust your bubble.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
