O.K. guys-talk me in or out of 10mm

[jem375]

To compare the 10MM to a 45ACP is stupid.........one is strictly self defense at close range, although game has fallen to it........the other is almost the equivalent of the 41 mag, not quite, but almost.........
I just bought a Dan Wesson Pointman Major in 45ACP, and soon will be buying the 10MM from them also, but, it is a good thing I reload for all my guns..........

 

[10-Ring]

Dad-Gummit
What did you decide? You know, a topic of this nature posed to a bunch of gun geeks may not be the most objective forum. Perhaps you just needed to be gently pushed off the edge?

 

[mso]

Coming and going...

NIJ Standard-0112.03, Autoloading Pistols for Police Officers

This revision of the standard deletes the 10mm and adds the 357 SIG caliber.

The 10mm is great. But it wouldn't be my first/only choice for most things I do with pistols any more than a Hummer would be for most of my driving...

 

[tetchaje1]

However, unless there is growth, or a high amount of regular purchases of NEW 10mm guns, at best the caliber will be relegated to "boutique" status; high prices, low volumes. At worst, the economics will eventually dry up existing 10mm manufacturing lines. Just economics, nothing against the caliber itself.

I guess that is why EAA Witness, Dan Wesson, Springfield, Glock, and others have introduced new models of 10mm firearms in the past few years. In fact, there are more 10mm models offered today then there were back when the 10mm cartridge was in its "hayday".

The main problem with the 10mm in the early days was the lack of reliable information getting to the consumer. With the pansies at the FBI feeling that the 10mm was too much for them, it signified a period of hybernation for the fledgling cartridge. The advent of the internet has changed all of that, and interest in one of the most versatile cartridges offered continues to grow because people have discovered the truth about it.

Oh yeah, Dan Wesson has a large percentage of their new Razorbacks spoken for before they have even gone into production.

I'm not saying 10mm is going to surpass 40S&W or anything, but it is far from being "boutique".

 

[agtman]

"My guess is that it [10mm sales] is slowly declining over time when normalized against the overall industry sales to private individuals."


Well, you'd be guessing wrong. Actually it's been slowly increasing, in both sales of 10mm guns and 10mm ammo.

The Sept. 2001 issue of ShootingTimes reported an increase in sales of Glock 20s and S&W's reintroduced 610 10mm revolver. The 610 was actually "reintroduced" at the 1998 SHOT Show, due to customer demand. The article, in part, cited comments from Glock reps at the May 2001 NRA Convention as indicating that "demand from hunters for the Glock 10mm Model 20 hunting package was still strong."

The article also reported an increase in 10mm ammo sales, citing "industry sources," but these sources were clearly identified as the usual suspects like Federal, Winchester, Hornady, and PMC - but, ironically, not from the lesser known 10mm ammo makers, like Georgia Arms, ProLoad or Texas Ammo, who no doubt would have reported heavy sales of their 10mm ammo too.

Ask yourself this: why would a major gunrag bother to go out on a limb to report these facts about a supposedly "dead/dying" cartridge if such information wasn't true? If increased 10mm sales weren't occurring, it simply wouldn't be newsworthy.

And all of this is before you consider that Glock brought out a second 10mm pistol on the U.S. market (the G-29) long after the 10mm was allegedly declared dead and buried for the 10th time. Then Tanfaglio began importing two Witness pistols in 10mm.

And this year Dan Wesson becomes the first domestic gunmaker to offer a 10mm since Colt or S&W in the early 90s.

Kinda strange these companies would do this when the financial risks of marketing handguns chambered for a "dead" cartridge no one wants strongly suggest otherwise?

 

[Forseti]

First off, I do NOT trust gun mags. Actually, having dealt with the press before, I don't trust any mags. The reason: many write articles and reviews based on the advertising dollars funneled their way for particular products.

A hypothetical example: You buy a lot of ads for the new .XX caliber line your company makes...and articles appear favorably talking about caliber .XX at the same time.

I find most mags RARELY give reviewed guns bad reviews. You practically have to read between the lines when they talk about stoppages or failures...with the exception of NRA pubs, which are pretty matter-of-fact about reviews.

Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general. If 9mms, .45s, .40s, and everything else is ALSO increasing (but at a faster rate than previous industry stats it would indicate a general increase in arms sales), normalizing the results would be an effective decline in the rate of aquisition.

 

[DeltaElite]

Ok, you convinced me. The 10mm is dead.

Anybody wanna buy two Deltas and two Glocks.

 

[agtman]

"I find most mags RARELY give reviewed guns bad reviews."



Who cares? No one - except you - was talking about gun rag reviews of guns.

The article cited was not a gun "review." It was specifically about reported sales increases in guns and ammo of a certain caliber - 10mm Auto. And not a particularly popular caliber these days with gun rags or their writers, which only makes it more eye-opening that the article was even published.

"Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general."

Here's a clue: Selling more 10mm guns this year than you sold last year counts as an increase, ... except, apparently, in the semi-oxygenated air of community-college economics.

More to the point, your verifiable statistical documentation to the contrary about 10mm sales data is ....... where?

 

[tetchaje1]

Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general. If 9mms, .45s, .40s, and everything else is ALSO increasing (but at a faster rate than previous industry stats it would indicate a general increase in arms sales), normalizing the results would be an effective decline in the rate of aquisition.

This just isn't true.

Gun sales in general have been dropping for years -- in all calibers, though I will say that the .40, .45, and 9mm are the most successful calibers out there in the sea of declining firearms sales.

OK, so there is a general decline in overall sales of firearms, but an increase in the sales of 10mm pistols and ammunition. This would indicate that the interest in the 10mm is even at a greater rate of increase than previously suspected, and that it is growing steadily in its (albeit currently small) market share in the calibers.

Better sell off all of my wildcat, dead-cartridge chambered guns...

 

[Beren]

My S&W 1076 is the backbone of my growing pistol collection. While ammo is more expensive than for my 9mm handguns, it's great fun to shoot, reliable, and the most accurate pistol I have ever shot. I shoot it better than the Kimber target pistol .45's that I've handled.

Everyone needs at least one 10mm handgun. The Glock 20 is a great first choice, as is a S&W 1076 or Glock 29. I'm not a huge fan of the Delta Elite, but then, I've never shot one, either.

 

[NordicG3K]

I think we're getting a little off track here. The fact is is that the 10mm Auto cartridge is a very versitle cartridge and covers more "territory" than just about any other cartridge.

The 9mm gives you increased capacity and controllability, but at the cost of stopping power.

The .357 Sig gives you near .357 Mag performance in an autoloader, but is limited in bullet weight.

The .40 S&W is an excellent "compromise" cartridge in that it gives you higher capacity than a .45 but better stopping power than the 9mm. It, like the 10mm, can handle a range of bullet weights but it has its limits in terms of power.

The .45 has been around for a long time and throws a big bullet, but low velocities limit it's power, especially at longer ranges.

The 10mm can use bullets ranging from 135 to 220gns and can be found in soft shooting FBI "Lite" loadings or full-power form such as Texas Ammo's 200gn XTP @ 1250fps. This is what makes it such a great cartridge. Not many guns can serve as both an "in town" CCW gun as well as provide you with suitable protection in the woods. Additionally many use it for hunting deer and smaller game animals. None of this has anything to do with how popular the cartridge is at the local gunstore or how much 10mm ammo they stock on their shelves.

 

[redneck2]

Think hard...

about visiting GlockTalk and go into the 10-Ring forum

search for posts by McNett. He gets the 10 crankin'

There was just a post by a GT'er that hog hunted with his 10. Total pass thru on a 300# rooter

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

mmmm, as a fairly inexperienced shooter, I have to say that I would definately not use 10mm Auto as my own choice of defensive round, simply because of the "snappy" way it discharges, and the flash/bang that goes with it. Also, you've got added weight and reduced magazine capacity.

I'd rather go with .45ACP if I was going for an every day carry self-defence round.

 

[NordicG3K]

mmmm, as a fairly inexperienced shooter, I have to say that I would definately not use 10mm Auto as my own choice of defensive round, simply because of the "snappy" way it discharges, and the flash/bang that goes with it.

If this is an issue the answer is called practice.

Also, you've got added weight and reduced magazine capacity. I'd rather go with .45ACP if I was going for an every day carry self-defence round.

I'm a little confused here. You list added weight and reduced magazine capacities as limitations and then go on to say you'd prefer the .45 for carry. Being that 10mms and .45s are built on the same size frame (Glock 20/21, S&W 1006/4506, Colt 1911 GM/Delta, etc.) I don't see how the .45 would address these particular shortcomings. (Personally I don't feel these are problems in the first place.)

 

[tetchaje1]

Actually 10mm results in an increase in capacity...


9+1 instead of 8+1...

 

[Fatcat]

Well, the .44 mag is more powerful, and the 9mm holds more rounds.

I like the 10mm, it seems to be a great choice for all around defense use - though it is still a bit expensive to shoot. Availability of guns seems to be a tad small, you either have the gigantic, brick-like guns, or the 1911 frame, which I question it's ability to hold up to many "hot" 10mm loads (IE: What the 10mm is supposed to be loaded at). I'll wait until Ruger comes out with a 10mm (P100 anyone? ).

 

[BigG]

Love my Delta Gold Cup.

 

[cratz2]

The real question is why do so many people hang onto the 45acp when the 10mm is such a better round?

This is very much not in line with the thinking of the vast majority of gun owners... Are we all idiots because we haven't got rid of our 243s, 257s, 270s, 30-06s in favor of the 577 Tyranosaur (or 458 Lott for those that prefer smaller bores?

All the gun owners I know like variety. A small bore rifle or two usually a 223 and 22-250 or 220. Then a 243 or 6mm, 257 Roberts or 25-06 (or both!), 270 Winchester or 7mm Rem Mag(or both), a 30-06 or 308 and a 30-30, a 45-70, maybe a 44 Mag lever gun etc...

Why should one shun the 45 ACP purely in favor of the 10mm? It's a great and obviously very versatile round, esp for the handloader but very very few will ever be able to shoot the 10mm as quickly and accurately as the 45 ACP. While it might make a near ideal single cartridge choice for a handloader that wishes to use it for target, hunting medium game and defensive purposes, to a casual shooter it is something of a lost cartridge. There are those that tout it as being more powerful than the 40 S&W which means it needs to be loaded hotter for this argument to stand. If it is loaded hot, then overpenetration MUST be a consideration. If it is down loaded to 40 S&W levels, then there is a lot of wasted case space and the grip may be too large for some shooters.

I just can't see how or why so many of us get all up in arms (pardon the pun ) over cartridge selection. The 9mm, 357 SIG, 38 Super, 9x23, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45ACP are all viable defense calibers though I tend to prefer the 45 ACP over the others. But to say that the 45 ACP is an inferior round to the 10mm purely because the 10mm is 'such a better round' is the same as saying the 30--06 is inferior to the 300 Win Mag. If the 30-06 will kill what you want to kill at a given distance and you can hit accurately with it, then the 30-06 is exactly as effective of a round and the 300 Win Mag is actually inferior due to the shooter needing to work harder to get the same level of performance out of it.

 

[Tom C.]

10mm Auto

I have to confess that I became interested in the 10mm over 20 yrs ago when I was still flying. As a military pilot in fighter aircraft, you are very limited in what you can carry and expect to retain following an ejection. The standard issue gun was a Model 10 S&W .38. Options included 9mm and .45 ACP. I thought then, and still think, that the 10mm would be a great survival gun for aircrew. Power of a .45, flat trajectory of the 9. Since I no longer fly, this isn't an issue for me any longer. But I do have several 10mm guns: S&W 1006, Colt Delta and Glock 20. Except for the blocky grip, the Glock is probably the best for survival purposes. Mine is certainly accurate enough with both lead and jacketed bullets. I am not looking to sell any of mine at the moment. I would like to see it make a comeback.

 

[tex_n_cal]

It is an interesting, versatile cartridge.

I have loaded for the .400 Corbon, and it demands GREAT caution with handloads, lest one's case swallow a bullet in feeding, and make a big noise in the wrong direction

Being a straight case, the 10mm is easy to handload, and very versatile. Just be careful with the idea that the 10mm is "dumbed down" in power from the major factories. I did load mine to 1400 fps with 155's - and got cases bulged over the feedramp, threatening a kB

Unless I have a ramped barrel with case support, a Smith model 610, or a Contender, I will be satisfied with 1300 fps for 155's. That still makes it a 9 shot .357 magnum, and that's hardly a bad thing

 

[tex_n_cal]

Oh yeah, just to whet your appetite...

 

[Boats]

Well I have fired about 300 rounds through a Delta Elite I almost bought off of a friend who wanted to raise funds for some nuclear Casull revo. I almost bought it, but in the end I declined. I am a dedicated .45ACP shooter. Though I can readily fire the 10mm with no ill effects, I did not like its recoil and recovery characteristics as much as those of my .45 ACPs, even the Officer's which simply seem to push my hands back rather than attempt to climb out of my hands like the 10mm seemed to want to do. That plus the limited capacity gain in the Delta made my answer a "no thanks."

Still, I find myself intrigued by the 10mm, not so much as a replacement for the .45ACP, but for the 9mm/.40 S&W. I sometimes think pretty long about buying a high-cap Caspian frame or something and getting someone to do a conversion on it. I like the concept of the Glock 20 and its 15+1 rounds of downrange fury in only a slightly larger package than the G17, but alas, I hate the ergos of the Glock so much that I will never buy one as currently made.

If the full-cap/high-cap ban sunsets, my 10mm hunt is on.

 

[vertigo7]

Another 10mm advocacy article.

Just picked up my new Para-Ordnance P-16 from my FFL, bought specifically to convert to 10mm. Happiness is 16rd mags of 10mm in your carry gun.

vertigo7

 

[SodaPop]

My favorite Glock is the G20.

 

[Boats]

I have never seriously looked into converting a Para. What is involved? What mags do you use? Why does it work and how well? Shok-buffs required?