Off Duty 65 Year Old Baltimore LEO,Shot Dead By On Duty Officers

[Winchester 73]

Off-duty officer shot, killed by city police.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/local/baltimore_city/bal-officer0424,0,6851732.story

3 city officers, including one who fired gun, on administrative duties during probe
By Gus G. Sentementes | Sun reporter
4:08 PM EDT, April 24, 2008

An off-duty Baltimore police officer fatally shot during a fight outside a club by a fellow officer early this morning was identified as Norman McLeod Stamp, who celebrated his 44th anniversary on the city force yesterday.

The 65-year-old officer was shot in the parking lot of Haven Place strip club at North Haven and Orleans streets in Southeast Baltimore, Police Commissioner Frederick H. Bealefeld III said at a news conference this morning.

"He was a mentor to some and a friend to many," Bealefeld said. "This is an incredibly difficult time. The men and women of this police department will remain focused, vigilant and undaunted."

Three Southeast District police officers, including the one who fired his gun, were placed on administrative duties during the investigation. Bealefeld identified them as Officer Raymond D. Buda, a 27-year veteran; Officer Jason J. Rivera, a 7-year veteran; and John E. Torres, a 5-year vetetan.

Bealefeld said Stamp was inside the strip club when a fight broke out involving several groups of men and some women who were trying to apply for jobs. The fight spilled into the parking lot about 12:30 a.m., and police were called.

The commissioner said the three officers, all in uniform, tried to break up the altercation and that Torres stood by the bar's front door to prevent others from joining in the fight. Bealefeld said Stamp emerged wearing brass knuckles. Torres ordered him to stop, and Bealefeld said Stamp refused.

Torres fired a Taser at Stamp, which knocked him to the ground. While on the ground, Bealefeld said that Stamp withdrew his service weapon and that Torres fired two shots, hitting Stamp at least once in the upper body.

Stamp was rushed to Maryland Shock Trauma Center, where he was pronounced dead about 1:30 a.m. Bealefeld said that at no time did Stamp identify himself as a police officer or heed the warnings of his colleagues. It was unclear whether Stamp had been drinking or was impaired.

While breaking up the fight, police said a bar patron suffered a broken leg when he was tackled by an officer. Police also said they expect at least one person involved in the fight to be arrested. Off-duty officers are required to carry their weapons but are also required to exercise sound judgment.

Stamp joined the city force on April 23, 1964, and worked a variety of assignments, including many years in the motorcycle unit. He was most recently assigned to the Harbor Patrol. He lived in Essex.

He made news in 1974 when, at 33, he broke his leg when his police motorcycle was hit by a police cruiser in East Baltimore.

[email protected]

An earlier version of this article online incorrectly stated the number of years of service Officer Raymond D. Buda has in the Baltimore Police Department. Buda is a 27-year veteran of the force.

 

[Lupinus]

broken leg by a fellow officer

killed by a fellow officer

boy did he have some crappy luck.

My condolences to his family and I hope if he wasn't impaired the officer who shot him gets more then a slap on the wrist.

 

[kingpin008]

if he wasn't impaired the officer who shot him gets more then a slap on the wrist.

Impaired or not, he was wearing brass knuckles (illegal here in MD) and he drew a gun on police after they had attempted to subdue him with less-lethal force. I would have shot him too.

Bealefeld said that at no time did Stamp identify himself as a police officer or heed the warnings of his colleagues.

Non-compliance, pulls a weapon..yea. The responding officers tried.

That said, it's extremely sad that he died. He was, by all accounts, a great cop. There are surely more facts to be had in this case, but if we are to come to a conclusion based on those we've been given so far, I can't see how the responding officers did anything wrong.

 

[Hypnogator]

I hope if he wasn't impaired the officer who shot him gets more then a slap on the wrist.

Not my take on the tragedy:

1. Ofc Stamp was wearing brass knuckles -- not an issue/authorized weapon.
2. He refused to comply with instructions of uniformed officers.
3. When tased, he attempted to draw a firearm.

I would have fired on him, too, had I been in the uniform officer's place.

It is tragic, but Ofc Stamp was the cause of his own demise.

 

[Lupinus]

being a long time LEO I was giving him a little benefit of the doubt that the media was being...well the media.

 

[Heartless_Conservative]

Question: What do you suppose would happen to one of us if we shot an off-duty LEO after he attacked us with brass knuckles?

 

[dalepres]

Impaired or not, he was wearing brass knuckles (illegal here in MD) and he drew a gun on police after they had attempted to subdue him with less-lethal force. I would have shot him too.

It doesn't say he was wearing brass knuckles, it says that Bealefeld "said" he was wearing brass knuckles. Brass knuckles and cheap pocket guns find their way into the hands of many dead victims of the police.

That isn't to say these cops staged the scene but it has certainly happened before. And a 44 year veteran knows better than to threaten cops with brass knuckles or to draw his weapon on a cop.

I think judgment on this one is better held off until all the witnesses are heard from.

 

[kingpin008]

True, this article says that. However, on the local news (I'm 15 minutes away from Baltimore City) they had multiple witnesses who affirmed that Stamp had them when he exited the bar.

 

[jeepmor]

This smells pretty fishy. An officer with brass knuckles, drawing on other officers. An officer with 40 years experience. Yep, that's fishy.

Unfortunately, the only folks that know are not talking and the other is dead. We'll never really know.

 

[kingpin008]

Unfortunately, the only folks that know are not talking and the other is dead. We'll never really know.

That's not true. There were multiple witnesses. The cops weren't even called out because of Officer Stamp to begin with. Not only did he have friends at the bar, the cops were also dealing with at least two females that were involved in a disturbance. So there are other folks who know, and whom (I'm assuming) are perfectly able (though possibly unwilling) to talk.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

This smells pretty fishy. An officer with brass knuckles, drawing on other officers. An officer with 40 years experience. Yep, that's fishy.

Not necessarily fishy. It is not uncommon for police officers with a lot less than 40 years on the force to have attained an attitude that they can do no wrong. Factor in that this took place in Baltimore, and I'd say there's a much better than even chance the deceased officer was one of those who thought he was exempt from laws, rules, and having to take instructions from "youngsters."

 

[JerryM]

As tragic as it is, Stamp evidently is the one responsible for his death.
As to the question as to what would happen if one of us killed an officer who attacked us with brass knucks, the answer is that it would be ruled justifiable. I would certainly fear that I would be killed or seriously injured. That is justification for the use of deadly force.

I could discuss the wisdom of them being where they were, and especially that a 65 year old should know better. That would not be permitted by the mods however, so I'll pass.

Regards,
Jerry

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

The brass knuckles were planted! This police force is one of the most crooked ones out there. I hope the officers involved serve no less than 3 consecutive life sentences.

 

[kingpin008]

The brass knuckles were planted! This police force is one of the most crooked ones out there.

Care to provide cites for those statements, or are you just blowing smoke?

 

[Crunker1337]

It's too early for us to say anything besides this is a tradgedy for all parties involved.

 

[Heavy Metal Hero]

Care to provide cites for those statements, or are you just blowing smoke?

Umm....the second one.

 

[Seancass]

Question: What do you suppose would happen to one of us if we shot an off-duty LEO after he attacked us with brass knuckles?

any takers???

 

[ilcylic]

Seancass: No answer to that question can be in keeping with the spirit encouraged here at THR.

I hope people will feel free to answer it to their own satisfaction, in their own heads, and continue the discussion in a polite and relevant manner.

To be circumspect, I expect your answer is much the same as mine, but I know not to encourage poor behaviour here.

 

[BullfrogKen]

John Farnam has often said:

Don't go to stupid places
Don't do stupid things
Don't hang out with stupid people

A fight broke out at a strip club at 1am. Really? Who'da thunk.


I'm sorry he's dead. But there's a lot more about this story that we'll have to wait to find out more about before anything substantial can be learned from this. Besides the above quoted advice, that is.


I listen to local Baltimore radio all the time - AM 1090 WBAL. I'm sure they'll continue to follow the story, and anything else I hear I'll pass on.

 

[owlhoot]

Was Pacman Jones there???

 

[Old Dog]

Of course, based on another recent THR thread, many here have no problem with the idea of carrying firearms in bars. One THR member even related as to how "wasted" he got one night while packing.

Question: What do you suppose would happen to one of us if we shot an off-duty LEO after he attacked us with brass knuckles?

Why would you even ask this, other than trying to stir the pot with the usual LEO vs. citizen crap? The guy reportedly didn't identify himself as a cop, and threatened deadly force against the responding officers. But none of us were there anyway, so any speculation based on media reporting is of zero use.

Nothing good happens at strip clubs after midnight.

 

[Kentak]

My condolences to his family and I hope if he wasn't impaired the officer who shot him gets more then a slap on the wrist.

Huh? Why? Taking the article and its account at face value, what did the officer do wrong? The victim came out wearing knuckles, did not identify himself as a cop, refused to stop, was justifiably tased, and then drew a gun. Seems like a justifiable shooting.

Yes, condolences to the family on this tragedy. A sad day for the force. But, *if* the facts are as presented in the article, what did the officer who shot Stamp do wrong? (Obviously, if the facts are different, my evaluation would change as well)

I guess we don't know yet if there was any alcohol impairment of the deceased, but given the circumstances, there's a good chance of that. Why would a sober off-duty cop fail to identify himself to a uniformed officer and then draw a gun on him?

K

 

[feedthehogs]

And a 44 year veteran knows better than to threaten cops with brass knuckles or to draw his weapon on a cop.

You would think, but it does happen.

The bottom line is you hang around toilets, your bound to get crap on you.

 

[Lupinus]

Ken-

Because if he wasn't impaired, it's likely he wasn't as stupid as this article makes him out to be. We've seen instances where cops do something extremely stupid and get slapped on the wrist for it....unless theres a media crap storm anyway then maybe something gets done.

I'm just giving both parties the benefit for no that the media is being the media and hyping things up.

Either he was as stupid as the article represents, or he was shot and shouldn't have been. We can't tell from one article.

 

[Geno]

What do you suppose would happen to one of us if we shot an off-duty LEO after he attacked us with brass knuckles?

In Michigan, there would be an investigation. In the end, justice would prevail. Police officers are "authorized" to carry certain weapons. While off duty, they can only carry a pistol/revolver as a "weapon", the same as any other person who CCWs. Ergo, if an officer drew brass knuckles, they would have engaged in felonious assault, and the violation of a host of laws. Inasmuch as Michigan as legislated Castle Doctrine, the investigation would not be long-lived.