Off Duty 65 Year Old Baltimore LEO,Shot Dead By On Duty Officers

[VonFireball]

Here at the High Road, I always try to view things objectively, with reason and logic.

Me too.

Fact of the matter is, strip clubs aren't high road in the least. They are the den of scumbags round the nation.

Hang out with the creatures of the night and you might get bitten.

I don't even walk in front of those places on the curb, let alone patronize them. Sometimes when you play with fire.........

 

[ilbob]

Question: What do you suppose would happen to one of us if we shot an off-duty LEO after he attacked us with brass knuckles?

You would be charged with murder and sentenced to the needle.

 

[kingpin008]

maybe someone can tell me who is applying for a job at 12:30AM?

dancers. audition on stage

Yup. It's a strip club/bar. They're open late.

 

[hamourkiller]

Remember when the old black lady got all shot up in Atlanta? Sounded good then, but with time, the truth came out.
No different here.

 

[buck00]

Sometimes you get an "above the law" mentality with LEOs (active and/or retired). Ever see that traffic stop video/incident where the on LEO (from another PD) says "oh its ok, I'm from this PD"- thinking he was above being ticketed, and a huge confrontation took place- all over LEOs struggling to establish control over each other.

* Sounds like (possibly) these younger LEOs responded to the call at the strip club, the retired cop tells them to go away things are ok.... and you have an authority struggle (turns personal very quick). You add in alcohol and things go down hill. All over a basic unwillingness or inability to submit to another's authority.

 

[Erik]

I have no doubt Officer Stamp meant well, that he was attempting to help his brothers in blue, and that alcohol contributed to the situation. Not necessarily, though. He may have been what Baltimore labels "responsible," and incorrectly assumed the officers would recognize him. He might not have realized he was tazed, and merely reacted to being put down. Only he really knows and he took that with him.

My sympathy goes out to his family, and to the Officers involved and to their families.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

is "one of them". Hmmmm....US vs. THEM. How is a person supposed to answer this on the High Road if they view things objectively and refuse to fall for the US vs. THEM emotional bait?

In this case, there is an US vs. Them. First, civilians in most states cannot CCW in a bar. Second, civilians in many states are subject to laws prohibiting possession while under the influence of alcohol. As long as LEOs can go into bars and get drunk while legally armed, there will be an US vs. THEM situation. A law abiding civilian in the same situation would still be alive because he would have been unarmed while drinking in a topless bar.

There is also the high probablity that this LEO was of the mindset that since he was a cop, he didn't need to obey the orders of another police officer. Especially since some junior officer still in uniform was ordering him, after 44 years of service, to do something he didn't want to do.

Unfortunately, the LEO that was forced to shoot a drunk pulling a handgun now has to live with this trajedy for the rest of his life.

 

[yokel]

Officer Norman Stamp's death was a senseless waste of life that serves no one’s real interests.

By most accounts that i've read, Stamp is remembered for being a husband, father, friend, a leader, an organizer of motorcycle club fundraising rides all over MD, a selfless person who genuinely cared about how other people were feeling and what was going on in their lives.

 

[ilbob]

Officer Norman Stamp's death was a senseless waste of life that serves no one’s real interests.

By most accounts that i've read, Stamp was a husband, father, friend, a leader, an organizer of motorcycle club fundraising rides all over MD, a selfless person who genuinely cared about how other people were feeling and what was going on in their lives.

And yet he spent time in strip clubs and pulled a gun on a cop. Human beings are complex critters.

 

[Erik]

He was there at a party in his honor! Sheesh, tough crowd.

Oh, but it was at a bar/club. That's where such things often are. So?

Oh, but it was late. LEOs work shift work and their parties often begin at odd hours. They often run into odd hours too, so that the shift that just got off can come. So?

Oh, but he likely drinking. Probably the crux of the matter, certainly the assumption. And if it turns out he's a non-drinker, or only had one or two? Baltimore requires its officers remain armed, apparently, everywhere all the time, even while drinking. That's old school.

Oh, but he had brass knuckles. Much will be made of this. There are more than a few old timers out there toting non-standard thumpers of one variety or another, issued or recommended to them their first week on the job. You can often times tell who; they're the one's with revolvers, though not always. The supposedly kinder, gentler ones, according to many a thread here.

Again, whatever the reason, a tragedy for the deparment and the families occured.

 

[RDak]

WOW!! That's a sad story.

 

[Tim Burke]

Remember when the old black lady got all shot up in Atlanta? Sounded good then, but with time, the truth came out.

It didn't sound good to me; it sounded like a cover-up, and it was.

He was there at a party in his honor!...
Oh, but it was late. LEOs work shift work and their parties often begin at odd hours.

If you are suggesting that this was a LEO party in the deceased's honor, I didn't get those facts from either of the two stories linked.

I think Officer Stamp gave the best summary of this tragedy when he said, after he had been mortally wounded, "I didn't know you were a cop."

 

[AKCOP]

A sad story indeed. However, based on what I have read so far I would say that Officer Stamp is a victim of his own very poor judgement.
The officer who shot will most likely be found to have been justified. I say most likely because I do not know all the facts just what I have read.

Not sure how Baltimore cops are trained but all training I ever provided in regard to off duty use or display of a firearm included immediate identification of yourself as a police officer. Also included discussion about if you were dumb enough to be drinking while armed you were asking for trouble especially if you were hanging around places that normally attracted bad behavior which normally resulted in police being called on a regular basis.

Many times citizens are cleared of shooting off duty officers when it is clearly shown the officer failed to properly identify themselves as such
and acted in such a manner as to place the citizen in a position of believing they were in jeopady of death or great bodily harm.

Alcohol is a very bad thing to mix with firearms regardless of the amount or how well you think you hold your liquor. Look at every shooting good or bad involving alcohol and in almost 100% of the cases if you removed the alcohol factor the incident probably would not have happened. This all of course is only my opinion but that opinion is based on witnessing first hand many many officers having to find a new careers because they thought they were different and could handle it.

 

[wbwanzer]

I drive past that joint (Haven Place) every day going to work. It's not a classy place.
The Baltimore Sun article I read quoted the owner of the bar as being a thirty year friend of Stamp, and that the Chosen Sons (motorcycle gang that Stamp belonged to) thought of the bar as their own. My guess is that he was in there a lot.

 

[Harley Quinn]

The story is interesting and complex for sure, Brass knuckles Tased and draws his weapon Mentions he did not know the person who shot him was a cop

Officers who broke up the fight are in uniform!!!!!

He was framed by the officers

Yea

 

[Geronimo45]

He also belonged to the Chosen Sons - a gritty motorcycle club that Stamp helped found in the 1960s, with a tight-knit membership that didn't shy from a fight.

This could mean that he fought folk when attacked, or that he picked fights himself. No telling for the moment, I guess.
Brass knuckles? Doesn't surprise me... have heard of LE folk carrying illegal knives before. Some don't know that the law regarding those weapons applies to 'em, some don't care.
Really odd story.

 

[JerryM]

AKCOP,
Good post.
Jerry

 

[Biker]

I'm having problems with this shooting. 'Nucks are normally worn on the dominant hand. So ol' Norm is wearing 'nucks, laying on the ground getting sparked up by a cop and he draws a gun on uniformed cops?

This just doesn't make a lot of sense.

edit: I just put my 'knucks on and tried to draw a couple of my handguns. Very slow and extremely difficult. I could only get my middle finger and thumb on the grip and it was not possible to get a finger in the triggerguard. I don't imagine getting tased at the same time would help matters any.

Biker

 

[kingpin008]

In all fairness, he might not have had posession of them anymore after he dropped. Also, the cops don't know what his dominant hand is - he could have reached for it with his off-hand and been seen drawing. If it were me, I would have shot too - dude had a weapon, got dropped with a taser, and then kept trying to produce weapons. That's scary.

 

[Huddog]

Clearly a sad situation.

 

[Biker]

'Knucks are tight - they're hard to shake off. Kinda hard to draw even without 'em while you're on the ground doin' the Funky Chicken.

Very curious...

Biker

 

[Tim Burke]

If I'm wading into a fight, and I have a sidearm on, I'd probably put the brass knuckles on my non-dominant side, for just that reason.

 

[kingpin008]

'Knucks are tight - they're hard to shake off. Kinda hard to draw even without 'em while you're on the ground doin' the Funky Chicken.

I can shake off my knuc...er, "novelty paper-weight" with a hard shake of my hand, if need be. They do fit snug, but not so snug that I have to take much time to remove them.

Not tryin' to counteract what you're saying, just providing a counter-point.

 

[Biker]

Maybe my hands are just big. It also occurred to me that - while I've never been tased - when an electrical current is applied to the human body, the muscles violently contract so Stamp's hand would make a fist, retaining the 'knucks.

Anybody here familiar with ridin' the lightening confirm or deny this?

Biker

 

[kingpin008]

I stuck a paperclip in a wall socket when I was a kid. Does that count?