Old guns without serial numbers

[CraigC]

I have run into a snag with a very professionally done, sporterized military Mauser 98 I found on Gunbroker. My theory is that it was sporterized and imported to the US prior to the Gun Control Act of 1968. At which point serial numbers became a legal requirement. All the markings, except the 7,9 on the barrel, have been removed. No ghetto grind job. It was all professionally done and if you didn't know any better, you'd think it was never there. This was never disclosed in the auction listing and my local FFL freaked out when he saw it. I would think that being manufactured and modified prior to 1968, then it should probably be treated just like any of those cheap .22's and shotguns that also did not carry a serial number prior to that time. My FFL thinks it'll get seized by the ATF. The seller used the serial number on the bolt for his logbook.

Anybody know the legalities of such a critter?

This is not a ploy to circumvent the law so no need for the safety police or Chicken Little types to panic and start running in circles.

 

[dogtown tom]

I would think that being manufactured and modified prior to 1968, then it should probably be treated just like any of those cheap .22's and shotguns that also did not carry a serial number prior to that time.

An obliterated serial number is just as illegal on a pre '68 gun as a post '68 gun.

My FFL thinks it'll get seized by the ATF.

He's probably right.
Last spring I had Galil rifle come in that had been so heavily Duracoated that the serial number and other required information was unreadble.

My ATF IOI recommended shipping it back to the seller....because if he came to pick it up ATF would destroy it.

 

[USAF_Vet]

My Hungarian Mosin M-44 lacks an importers serial #. Serial numbers on the bolt don't match the mag plate or receiver.

I figures as long as the s/n on the receiver was legible, it should be fine. Your case, well, I'd contact the seller and talk about a refund. If the gun had a serial number, required or not, and it was obliterated, professionally or not, you are still looking at some serious potential for legal issues. Especially since your FFL can't do the transfer without a serial number for his books. I'd try to get my money back, while keeping the rifle at your FFL if he is willing, and send it back to the seller if it would be legal to do so. Otherwise, you might be out of luck, money and rifle.

 

[Ian]

Any chance it was built on a newly-made bare receiver that wasn't numbered? If that is the case, the bolt number could be considered the legal one, IMO.

 

[SaxonPig]

Any Mauser has a number. No matter how old the gun a removed serial makes it contraband. Sorry.

 

[CraigC]

If serial numbers were not required until 1968, why would it be illegal to have removed one before then? Or am I missing something??? I've heard of R.F. Sedgeley building 1903's and removing all their lettering as well.

 

[ColtPythonElite]

How would you prove the number was removed before 1968?

 

[rcmodel]

Any chance it was built on a newly-made bare receiver that wasn't numbered? If that is the case, the bolt number could be considered the legal one, IMO.

Who is making Mauser Model 98 Receivers without serial numbers??
Nobody!
And a serial numbered bolt is never a legal serial number under the eyes of the law anyway.

I've heard of R.F. Sedgeley building 1903's and removing all their lettering as well.

R.F. Sedgley was very active in gun building from approx. 1920 - 1940.
And Sedgley may very well have removed serial numbers & markings prior to 1934 and applied his own.

It wasn't against the law to deface a serial number or manufactures markings until the passage of the 1934 National Firearms Act.

Sedgley could do anything he wanted too while customizing or refinishing an action before then.
But he didn't do it after 1934 I betcha!

How would you prove the number was removed before 1968?

It wouldn't matter.
It became illegal to deface or remove serial numbers or manufactures marks in 1934.

rc

 

[CraigC]

Well if the NFA made it illegal to deface a serial number than I'm probably screwed either way. I was not aware of that. Surely they would not have allowed importation of any guns without any markings of any kind?

 

[CraigC]

At the same time, how would you prove or disprove that it wasn't done before the NFA was passed in 1934???

Does calling the ATF pretty much settle its fate one way or another? If I can send it back, I can get a refund. If the ATF confiscates it, I'm probably screwed.

Does the ATF ever mark one with a new serial number?

 

[rcmodel]

To further clarify.

Serial numbers were only required on centerfire rifles and handguns after the 1934 NFA.

Shotguns and .22 RF's did not require a serial number by law until passage of the 1968 GCA.

But even prior to those laws, higher quality commercial firearms like colt & winchester, and all military weapons used serial numbers, almost since metalic cartridges were invented.

As somebody else said, 98 Mausers all had serial numbers to start with, regardless of the law or not.
Thats just the way they did it in Germany, and other places that made them way back when.

rc

 

[USAF_Vet]

You can sell an AR built from an 80% receiver.

At most, you might have to give it a serial number. But that is largely state law dependent.

 

[deadin]

I suppose you could retain a lawyer to search case law to see which way the courts have interpreted the serial number issue. If you can't find any case law examples, here's a chance to make some...... (Just be prepared to pay for the privilege.)

 

[mavracer]

At the same time, how would you prove or disprove that it wasn't done before the NFA was passed in 1934???

I suppose if you had a dated gunsmiths bill from before 1934 you might have a leg to stand on, unfortunatly the ATF gets to decide where the burden of proof is.

 

[SaxonPig]

I think the ATF has folks on salary who know which guns did have numbers and which did not. Such info is not a secret.

 

[Al Thompson]

Craig, I know that forensic examiners use acid to raise other wise defaced or destroyed S/Ns. That would be the only thing I could think of, restore the S/N.

 

[Sam1911]

The code simply says:

(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

Unfortunately that doesn't give any real caveats or recourses -- even, strictly speaking, for restoring a serial number. I mean, what might be covered by the word "altered" there? I'd pass.

 

[jrdolall]

I would contact the seller and ask them. Maybe they know something we don't. My Mauser has about 50 serial numbers on every part and piece. I would imagine the legal issue is with them shipping an illegal gun and as long as you let them know right away they should be responsible.

 

[CraigC]

Something tells me that "US Code 18/1/44/922" is going to find its way into an email here shortly. Thanks guys!

 

[loose noose]

Mr Rogers, I'm totally unfamiliar with any AR being built from scratch w/o a serial number, as I've built several myself. Perhaps you could specify what you mean by w/o a serial number.

 

[TRX]

You can buy unmachined forgings or castings without restriction. They're often called "0%" lowers. Various people have whittled AR lowers from one or more pieces of aluminum. Over on homegunsmithing.com, a builder did one out of sheet steel.

You can also buy semi-machined lowers, often referred to as "60%" or "80%". That's not a legal definition, just marketing. To the ATF, it's either a receiver or it's not... though at some point, it's close enough that a nonfunctional semimachined receiver may be considered functional, and therefore a receiver by the ATF.

There's no Federal restriction on making your own receivers or guns for your own use, other than that they be otherwise legal. The ATF also doesn't require a serial number, registration, or any other paperwork, though some states might.

Downside is, selling or giving away anything you've made falls into a gray area the ATF has repeatedly refused to clarify; most homebuilders interpret that as "here be dragons" and avoid the issue to keep from being a "test case."

 

[Sam1911]

Downside is, selling or giving away anything you've made falls into a gray area the ATF has repeatedly refused to clarify; most homebuilders interpret that as "here be dragons" and avoid the issue to keep from being a "test case."

No, it really DOESN'T fall into a "grey area."

It is PERFECTLY legal to sell a firearm you made yourself. (You may not make a gun "for the purpose of" selling it, but you may certainly sell one you've made yourself, from scratch or from parts.) It DOES NOT (under federal law) have to have a serial number, even if sold.

Here (http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/firearms-technology.html) is the ATF's FAQ which covers this:

Individuals manufacturing sporting-type firearms for their own use need not hold Federal Firearms Licenses (FFLs). However, we suggest that the manufacturer at least identify the firearm with a serial number as a safeguard in the event that the firearm is lost or stolen. Also, the firearm should be identified as required in 27 CFR 478.92 if it is sold or otherwise lawfully transferred in the future.

Note the words "we suggest" and "should." That's not the language that the ATF uses when it has ANY authority to enforce those "suggestions." The CFR reference they give for marking a Title I firearm is actually the description of how TITLE II firearms MUST be marked, by law. But unless you're building an SBR, SBS, silencer, machine gun, AOW, or Destructive Device, that doesn't really apply.

Now, it really isn't a bad idea to mark them somehow, but it also is not legally required.

 

[Romeo 33 Delta]

@rcmodel ... It was not just cheap 22s and shotguns that lacked serial numbers. I have a factory Marlin 62 in .256 WinMag without one. It is factory original and NOT entirely uncommon. I can have this numbered by Marlin, but am under no legal requirement to do so ... so it remains un-numbered.

@CraigC ... Given that it was not illegal to "clean" a receiver prior to 1934 and '98 Mauser has been in production since 1898, I guess I don't see a problem. It's clear that this was not, as you said, a "getto grind job" (why would a "criminal type" bother with a cosmetically perfect job?). For my 2 cents worth, it's a receiver from a WW-I issued rifle (maybe a 1915 Spandau-built, GEW 98 rifle like one of mine?), captured and sporterized in 1919 by some unknown gunsmith. End of discussion.

 

[Sam1911]

For my 2 cents worth, it's a receiver from a WW-I issued rifle (maybe a 1915 Spandau-built, GEW 98 rifle like one of mine?), captured and sporterized in 1919 by some unknown gunsmith. End of discussion.

Right. Sure. That's almost certainly true.

However, the law says:

" It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce."

It doesn't say, "unless it was done back in the day, or by a good gunsmith rather than some a ghetto type..."

 

[CraigC]

Anybody know what it takes to get the ATF to assign a new serial number?

Am I committed if I call them or can I ask such questions without it going further?

I'm going tomorrow to see if there are any markings hidden by the stock.