Old guns without serial numbers

[Frank Ettin]

Let's have another look at the actual law that Sam quoted, 18 USC 922(k), but this time with some emphasis added:

....(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce....

So a gun that was legally made and sold without a serial number is one thing. But a gun that had a serial number once, but that number was removed, obliterated or altered is another thing entirely.

Violation of 18 USC 922(k) may be punished by up to five years in federal prison and/or a fine (plus conviction will result in a lifetime loss of gun rights).

Anybody know what it takes to get the ATF to assign a new serial number?

Am I committed if I call them or can I ask such questions without it going further?...

I do believe that the ATF may, under some circumstances, authorize a gun to be "re-serialized." But I don't know any details. I think that would be your only option to legally keep the gun.

I think ATF will need to be contacted. It would be best if you had a lawyer contact ATF on your behalf. That would have you better protected if ATF says "no."

 

[Romeo 33 Delta]

I would counter by asking:

1. What is the date of the law which is being cited?

2. Why does this make it retroactive to firearms with removed serial numbers from before the law's effective date? Isn't ex post facto generally considered in these cases, whether stated or not?

Not arguing ... just seriously asking.

But, I'll add this to the mix. Finding absolutely NO evidence of a pre-existing serial number, why are you assuming that there was one? I know, I know, "all military firearms have serial numbers". Further, just because there is a "number" on the bolt does not mean the bolt was original to the rifle.

OK, what if it were NOT an ex-military rifle? I'm just saying that it is NOT beyond the relm of possibility that this receiver had no serial number ... so why not just not worry about it? I'm not advocating violating the law ... I am advocating NOT making a problem where one doesn't exist. Why would my position be incorrect?

How do you handle a lunch-box special M1911A1 with no serial numbers anywhere?

 

[dogtown tom]

Romeo 33 Delta I would counter by asking:

1. What is the date of the law which is being cited?

National Firearms Act of 1934

2. Why does this make it retroactive to firearms with removed serial numbers from before the law's effective date? Isn't ex post facto generally considered in these cases, whether stated or not?

Because thats the way the law was written and passed. As already explained, Mausers didn't leave the factory unnumbered.

But, I'll add this to the mix. Finding absolutely NO evidence of a pre-existing serial number, why are you assuming that there was one? I know, I know, "all military firearms have serial numbers". Further, just because there is a "number" on the bolt does not mean the bolt was original to the rifle.

We are assuming that the firearm had a serial number because Mauser (like many European firearms companies) marked them with serial numbers on nearly every part possible. ATF Technical Branch knows this as does every collector of Mausers. Could one escape without a serial number? Sure, but you damned well better be prepared to prove that guns provenance.

OK, what if it were NOT an ex-military rifle? I'm just saying that it is NOT beyond the relm of possibility that this receiver had no serial number ... so why not just not worry about it? I'm not advocating violating the law ... I am advocating NOT making a problem where one doesn't exist. Why would my position be incorrect?

As stated previously, rifles and shotguns were not always required to have a serial number. Typically budget priced guns did not.

How do you handle a lunch-box special M1911A1 with no serial numbers anywhere?

Again, no serial number is not illegal.......removing or obliterating the serial number is.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Tom basically beat me to it.

But to clarify, there's nothing retroactive or ex post facto about the law. The law makes it a crime to, after the effective date of the law, possess a gun that has ever had its serial number removed, obliterated, or altered. The crime, possession of such a gun, must occur after the effective date of the law. Upon the effective date of the law any gun which had a serial number, which number was ever removed, obliterated or altered, became contraband. But the act constituting the crime is continued possession (and a few other acts) after the law came into effect.

 

[CraigC]

I'm completely disgusted with this. I have basically demanded a full refund, including shipping. He wanted me to pay his Gunbroker fees but that ain't happening. My dealer will hold the rifle until payment is received. When he gets the rifle back, he can decide what to do with it. It's a damn shame because it's a hell of a nice rifle and I've got $200 invested in dies, components and loaded ammo but it just ain't worth the headaches.

 

[dirtyjim]

craig can you post a link to the auction? and does the rifle have any belgian proofmarks on it?
a lot of rifles buily by fn in the 50' & 60's that were ment to go to south africa only had the serial number on the barrel shank. they also exported a lot of actions to various aftermarket manufactures that were to be serial numbered by the manufacture after the rifle was assembled.
i've seen new in the box fn actions without any serial numbers, both commercial and military style with both c & h rings.

i know a guy who just went through the same problem and about 8 months later he got the rifle back from the atf with a new serial number.

 

[CraigC]

Not yet. There are no proof marks on it at all. Only the 7,9 on the barrel.

 

[mikechandler]

Bottomline:

The seller misrepresented the item; it's not legal for sale or transfer; he owes you a refund.

Send it back, pronto.

 

[CraigC]

I agree. The seller is getting sarcastic with me, is so far completely unapologetic and has yet to actually admit to doing anything wrong. He's acting like I'm just being a picky buyer. So you guys can expect full disclosure at the appropriate time.

 

[dogtown tom]

Craig,

As I mentioned in post #2, I've dealt with this type of seller before.

I would give him a very short time period to get you your complete refund. If he balks, gets pissy or whiny or fails to completely refund your entire purchase price including shipping costs......report him to ATF. You aren't ratting him out, but taking appropriate action against a cheat, a fraud and a scammer.

That jerk knew damn well that his gun was missing its serial number and he thought he would just dump it off on someone who didn't know any better.

As long as the gun community tolerates these guys they'll just keep on doing business as usual.

 

[wv109323]

Let me add a twist to this story. Could an FFL with a manufacturer's license assign a serial number to the rifle. As long as it is not a duplicate serial number it would not be illegal in my thinking.
Or does a manufacturer have to manufacture what he puts a serial number on?
Just trying to educate myself on this one.

 

[Sam1911]

He could put a serial number on a gun he manufactured. (As a licensed maker he would HAVE to.)

Evan as an FFL he could not be in possession of a firearm that had had a serial number which had been altered or removed.

 

[CraigC]

All fears proved true and there were no exceptions to be made. As suspected, the NFA of 1934 made it illegal to obliterate the serial number of any firearm. Not only did the GCA of 1968 require serial numbers on all firearms but it made it illegal to possess any firearm that has had its serial number removed. Old .22's and shotguns made without them are exempt. Old Mausers with theirs removed are not. So the word from the ATF is that they cannot issue a new serial number and the receiver must be destroyed. After much back & forth, the seller finally refunded the full purchase price including shipping. Trying to work out now who will get the remaining parts of the rifle.

 

[Sam1911]

Oy... sorry to hear the bad news, but glad you're not coming out on the short end of the stick!

 

[horsemen61]

That sucks sorry to hear that.

 

[CraigC]

I was lucky. The guy at the ATF was cool and I think his phone call to the seller sealed the deal for my refund.

 

[Bubbles]

Calls from the ATF tend to do that.

 

[USAF_Vet]

After all that hassle, I'd push to keep the remains.

 

[CraigC]

I am. I've also got $200 worth of ammo, dies and components that will be useless otherwise.