On "Timmy" and other new members

[gulogulo1970]

People like that are very important to help us focus our counter augments. Hanging around here preaching to the choir, what does that accomplish? The possibility to change an ignorant mind is a good thing.

Now, the guy could be a plant to try to waste our time and draw us off-sides. But even if that is the case, it is always good to argue and back-up ideas you believe in. Practice makes perfect.

 

[Newcatwalt]

Deleted my faux pas - sorry.

 

[Newcatwalt]

Always good not to be challenged, right? Nice to be surrounded only by those who agree with you.

Comforting.

But it doesn't help us at all to spend every day preaching to the choir.

I always like a good challenge. I don't like being played for a fool.
Excuse me if I'm skeptical of that entire conversation.

It is comforting being surrounded by those with like values and beliefs - no shame in that. What would you have me do - surround myself with disagreeable people and spend my life in conflict?

I'd rather spend the day preaching to the choir than banging my head against a wall. :banghead:

And, I usually like the channel I'm watching but occasionally I get excited and yell at the screen. I guess as I get older I have less patience for people who waste my time.

 

[gulogulo1970]

I totally understand. I don't come here to debate. I come for information on a hobby that I love.That is what information does it banishes ignorance. Be it technical firearms information or information on RKBA it does the same thing.
Maybe, he is real then we did a good thing. Maybe, he is a troll, well then we got some practice in changing minds.

Either way, we should always be ready for the minds that don't think like most of us and be ready to combat them in a civil way.

 

[goon]

Timmy4 seemed to be pretty up-front about his motives and opinions. He behaved pretty respectfully and engaged in an honest discussion. Some of his opinions were changed by conversations had on this board. If sincere, that is progress.
If not, meh... kept you all entertained for a few days. And it gave us a chance to sharpen our debating skills.

I don't know what all the belly aching is about. This is just the internet. It's not like any of you have to invite him to a picnic or anything.
Hell, if he does return, no one really needs to respond at all.

 

[BHP FAN]

'' I guess as I get older I have less patience for people who waste my time...''

Me, too. That's because we have less time to waste, as we get older.

 

[larryh1108]

There are people in this country who like to debate for the sake of the debate. They have (had?) debating teams in high schools and colleges. It is an art as much as anything else. I believe timmy loved to debate. His motives, notwithstanding, may have been lost in the debate but he found a good many people here who were up to the task. If he felt his debating skills were above most he learned that not to be the case.

Wasting our time? What's to waste? We're all here anyways and there is not a whole lot of anything new going on to discuss. Anybody could have just moved on when they became bored and I'm sure many did. He didn't waste our time, we wasted our own time if that's what you felt.

 

[cluck]

be a timmy

I have to say, how many of us would go to the Brady campaign board and lay it all out there and dive right in. I'm half tempted to see if I would be treated as fairly as timmy was here. What's the worst that can happen?

 

[TCB in TN]

I have to say, how many of us would go to the Brady campaign board and lay it all out there and dive right in. I'm half tempted to see if I would be treated as fairly as timmy was here. What's the worst that can happen?

I have frequented a number of anti sites over the years. Non held themselves to the standards held here.

 

[Sam1911]

Excuse me if I'm skeptical of that entire conversation.

Ok. I'm not sure I understand what there is to be skeptical about. It was what it was.

... I guess as I get older I have less patience for people who waste my time.

Which is an ironic thing to say about a thread you have to click to see on a website you have to go log onto, repeatedly, to have your time wasted. If you've ever debated an anti and not managed to change every one of their beliefs ... I guess your time was wasted. Shoot, what are we doing here anyway!?! I think American Idol is on!!!

 

[Prince Yamato]

In all honesty, I think he was just a plant.

I think the anti-gun folks are bringing out their (ironic) "big guns". They're actually doing research and seeing if they can infiltrate our forums and make it look like "reasonable gun owners" support restrictions but that they get shouted down by a "couple extremists" whenever they bring up "gun safety". They learn our "language" and try to sound "like us".

Real folks generally browse forums until they have made up their opinion and then post. They don't join forums they don't agree with because, frankly, what's the point, unless, you want to start a flame war?

I think the majority of these people see us as socially ignorant and backwards and think that while they're posting their bogus opinions that they may be able to some how defeat us in a battle of logic and wits- except of course, for the fact that they can't- which is when they leave the forum.

 

[skeeziks]

"They're actually doing research and seeing if they can infiltrate our forums and make it look like "reasonable gun owners" support restrictions but that they get shouted down by a "couple extremists" whenever they bring up "gun safety"."

The flaw in your theory is that Timmy wasn't posing as a "reasonable gun owner." He stated right off the bat he was deathly affraid of guns. I believe his words were "...frankly, guns scare the heck out of me."

 

[hso]

We currently have members who make the lonely trek to sites with members predominantly in favor of restrictions on firearms owners. I've done this myself. We've been called trolls, but we've also carried the truth and we've learned a bit in the process. We even occasionally opened some minds by being calm, civil, factual and patient instead of hysterical.

That's what this site is all about. Opening minds.

Now that this thread is open again, I'll limit my posts to it.

There seems to be quite a bit of confusion about my beliefs here, so let me restate them:

1. I do not believe in banning assault weapons; I never have.
2. I do not believe in banning high capacity magazines. I used to, but no longer believe in it, thanks in large part to some of the arguments made in this forum.
3. I do not believe that guns are unnecessary for home defense. I don't use them, but that doesn't mean that others shouldn't.
4. I do not believe in seizing anyone's guns, now or ever.

If you guys want to argue any of the above points, you're arguing with the wrong guy.

Here's what I do believe in:

1. Universal background checks are a good idea.
2. A national registration database for all guns is a good idea.
3. None of the most common gun control proposals, whether good or bad ideas, actually violate the 2nd Amendment.
4. There is no "slippery slope" to worry about.

Those are the points I am willing and eager to discuss and debate.

Does it matter whether we helped make a change in one person's attitudes or is it more important that we argued effectively and successfully and provided a good example to members and others of how our positions are rational and logical and factually defensible?

 

[Newcatwalt]

Ok. I'm not sure I understand what there is to be skeptical about. It was what it was.

Which is an ironic thing to say about a thread you have to click to see on a website you have to go log onto, repeatedly, to have your time wasted. If you've ever debated an anti and not managed to change every one of their beliefs ... I guess your time was wasted. Shoot, what are we doing here anyway!?! I think American Idol is on!!!

Fearing repercussions, I have no wish to "toe the line" with one of the moderators here because it's a fight I can't win. I do find it amusing that you're more aware than I of when American Idol is showing on TV. I'm a guest here. I've had my say. I'll try and let it go at that and be more civil.

 

[Sol]

If this guy is a "troll", and there is a four page thread about him...it appears he got what he wanted.

P.S. I'm happy to see nobody used the word "psyop" in any of their posts.

 

[Ignition Override]

hso: That is a superb summary.
At first I suspected that he is with the media or is a politician (maybe seasoned academic) who wanted simply to evaluate peoples' beliefs
without any visible provocation. He was one of the most detached gun debaters I've seen, with no sign of taking things personally.

Maybe he only stated that some beliefs were changed, to be diplomatic and avoid antagonizing people to any greater degree

 

[meanmrmustard]

Then my freedom of speech should not have offended anyone when I expressed my doubts as to his motives.

At first I took "The High Road" and looked for the best but as time went on it became apparent (to me and a few others) Timmy4 was not as he presented himself. Paint me among those who think his responses were coached and "by committee". Since I will not tolerate those I believe are liars I will leave it at that.

Just my opinion.

This is a private forum, and the first amendment defense gets left at the log in.

 

[cyclopsshooter]

This is a good thread. I made a smart ass remark in that thread and regret it now. Will take it seriously next time.

 

[BLB68]

And yet, by his own admission he went away convinced of several points important to us.

I'm having trouble seeing the great threat or harm here...

I think Timmy gave the appearance of not wanting to be convinced due to the nature of his responses. When he disagreed with something, more times than not, he'd simply say, "I'm not convinced," without giving any reasoning to back it up. Without knowing his objections to a given argument, it's hard to come up with a response. That makes it seem as if he's close-minded.

I think the reason he's been called a troll or a fake is largely a matter of perception. Perhaps he was just timid about putting forth ideas or reasoning that might be shot down, and preferred to ruminate on things in silence, checking back as more THRers put in their two cents. He did seem to change his mind on several points, at least.

One other observation: It seems like the opening and closing of the threads seemed to confuse everybody, including Timmy, whose benefit it was for. If that was the main intent, I don't think it went over well. (There may have been other reasons, such as giving the mods a chance to keep up with the thread to keep things civil, which I think was mentioned much.) Anyway, just an observation. This board has one of the best moderation teams of any I've been on, so I'll not second guess you.

 

[freyasman]

I, for one, really enjoyed Timmy4's thread's here, and it inspired me to go out and join other boards and speak to people about their views on this subject. I realized that we are all pretty like-minded here with regards to the RKBA, and that I needed to hear what others had to say, in the interests of understanding where they're coming frrom and why they feel the way they do.
BTW, its given me a new appreciation of how "High Road" this board is.... one lady on another board was so vicious, I felt like she wanted to jam a chain saw up my butt.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Originally Posted by 76shuvlinoff View Post

Then my freedom of speech should not have offended anyone when I expressed my doubts as to his motives.

At first I took "The High Road" and looked for the best but as time went on it became apparent (to me and a few others) Timmy4 was not as he presented himself. Paint me among those who think his responses were coached and "by committee". Since I will not tolerate those I believe are liars I will leave it at that.

Just my opinion.

meanmrmustard says:

This is a private forum, and the first amendment defense gets left at the log in.

Ironic as it seems sometimes, with me being a moderator on a Harley Tech forum, I understand that policy. We have the same policy that comments there are not subject to the First Amendment.

I was responding to another post that Timmy was exercising his freedom of speech.

 

[hso]

There may have been other reasons, such as giving the mods a chance to keep up with the thread to keep things civil, which I think was mentioned much.

That and "traffic control" to keep the threads from jamming up with members anxious for timmy to return and respond. We also saw that good points were being buried amidst the traffic and that made it more convenient if timmy wanted to ignore them. And we had a disappointing number of people who just said "Go away" (and worse) and it took time and resources to keep the thread from getting truly embarrassing for THR's mission. Most of the members showed restraint and accounted themselves well and did THR proud and that makes me even more honored to be a member here.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Originally Posted by 76shuvlinoff View Post



meanmrmustard says:


Ironic as it seems sometimes, with me being a moderator on a Harley Tech forum, I understand that policy. We have the same policy that comments there are not subject to the First Amendment.

I was responding to another post that Timmy was exercising his freedom of speech.

Apologies.

 

[KTXdm9]

I enjoyed the debate. I did notice that Timmy often overlooked or did not respond to points that disproved his own. I guess that's not all that atypical on a message board, though.

I understand the paranoia about the others side (Moby, etc). If that was the goal, I think he left very disappointed. It seemed to me like he genuinely wanted to debate, at least until he figured out he couldn't win.

 

[Russ Jackson]

There are members at each end of the spectrum and beyond. Its tough to argue when you are the minority on a site like this when you are out so numbered. He probably figured if he continued to blast back the Mods would get annoyed and shut it down. He made his point even though none of us bought it. This is not a place for free speech and he gave up.