Deanimator
Member
Tell me, what happens on anti-gun sites when people refute anti-gun arguments?
On "Timmy" and other new members
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OptimusPrime
Member
Those other sites aren't call High Road.
Deanimator
Member
I've been to plenty of anti-gun or contested venues.
The overwhelming pattern on such sites that are moderated is for contradictory opinions to be deleted or never see the light of day in the first place.
Tag
Member
I was having a discussion with a co-worker the other day that mirrors this situation. Explaining that while evil things do happen, on the gun-control side of things, we are fundamentally right, logically, morally, and legally.
As someone who was a newbie when he came here for information a few years ago, this post is disturbing. I have become more "all in" regarding rkba because of this forum, and helped convince friends of that too.
I can assure you my more convinced position on rkba is because of open and helpful people here, and not opinions like the op expresses. To the op, you are not helping rkba. To the folks who've expressed that it is the duty on thr to express openness and facts and to be professional, you're the people who've made me a better advocate for rkba.
Not everyone lives their entire life on this forum. Not everyone marches in lockstep with the NRA. The way people are treated here informs how they communicate about rkba in their real lives. Being unwelcoming, suspicious and downright rude has its risks. Accusing people of being soldiers in some Trojan Horse, simply because you see daylight between their opinion and yours carries risks to support for rkba. The things is, if you always act mature and adult like and inform without accusation, you cannot lose.
Act as you wish, but mind risks.
I can assure you my more convinced position on rkba is because of open and helpful people here, and not opinions like the op expresses. To the op, you are not helping rkba. To the folks who've expressed that it is the duty on thr to express openness and facts and to be professional, you're the people who've made me a better advocate for rkba.
Not everyone lives their entire life on this forum. Not everyone marches in lockstep with the NRA. The way people are treated here informs how they communicate about rkba in their real lives. Being unwelcoming, suspicious and downright rude has its risks. Accusing people of being soldiers in some Trojan Horse, simply because you see daylight between their opinion and yours carries risks to support for rkba. The things is, if you always act mature and adult like and inform without accusation, you cannot lose.
Act as you wish, but mind risks.
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OptimusPrime
Member
^this x 1,000. Well said Gossamer.
LiveLife
Member
For quite a number of years, the Democrat/liberal neighbors and coworkers I know and work with held firm stance against guns. They just treated me as another gun toting conservative.
However, in recent years as they or someone they knew/related became victims of robbery/home invasion, they started to change their viewpoint and started supporting "self defense/right to keep and bear arm" from criminals and gang members. I guess fear is a great motivator. The discussions usually start with, "Did you hear who got robbed? Such and such down the road ..." and I respond by, "That terrible, let's talk about 911/police response and being able to protect yourself until they arrive ..." I have helped them buy guns and train many Democrat/liberal neighbors and coworkers over the last few years.
I am happy to report that at least on one issue, we now have a common ground where they believe they have right to self defense, especially when the crime rate in our city went up significantly in 2012. When the house across the street fell victim of home invasion robbery, now I have neighbors asking when I am going to the range and friends of neighbors are also showing up at the range too (yes, more Democrats and liberals).
To my surprise, the Democrats/liberals have become CCW permit holders in increasing numbers. When one coworker was interested in getting a gun and a CCW permit, I said, "You? I thought you were against guns?" and she said her family member got robbed and the increased number of crimes in her neighborhood made her change her mind. She asked if I could help her pick out a gun and train her to use it. I smiled big and said, "Well of course!" I was thinking 9mm Glock 19 but she ended up picking 45ACP Glock 36 - she was very excited when she got her CCW permit and encouraged all of her family/friends to do the same - and they did.
Whenever someone tries to argue about gun control, I ask them how a single mother or elderly living in a bad part of the town will protect themselves against multiple criminals/rapists/robbers ...
I see more and more female shooters and elderly shooters at the range practicing these days. Just recently, when I got to the range, I found a grey haired elderly lady shooting a .38 revolver at a human sized target set at 5 yards and missing it. I noticed she lacked the strength to use the DA trigger and was using her thumb to cock the hammer. Her hands were shaking and it was obvious she had arthritis. I didn't even shoot that day. I spent my range session going over the shooting basics and when she produced 3 inch shot groups at 7 yards, she thanked me genuinely.
Gun control laws and magazine restrictions will not help those who really need protection. Shouldn't law makers be working to provide protection for the weak, elderly and the disabled? I read through timmy4's arguments but if he saw enough victims of violent crimes and talked to them, he may have a very different perspective why forums such as THR exists ...
However, in recent years as they or someone they knew/related became victims of robbery/home invasion, they started to change their viewpoint and started supporting "self defense/right to keep and bear arm" from criminals and gang members. I guess fear is a great motivator. The discussions usually start with, "Did you hear who got robbed? Such and such down the road ..." and I respond by, "That terrible, let's talk about 911/police response and being able to protect yourself until they arrive ..." I have helped them buy guns and train many Democrat/liberal neighbors and coworkers over the last few years.
I am happy to report that at least on one issue, we now have a common ground where they believe they have right to self defense, especially when the crime rate in our city went up significantly in 2012. When the house across the street fell victim of home invasion robbery, now I have neighbors asking when I am going to the range and friends of neighbors are also showing up at the range too (yes, more Democrats and liberals).
To my surprise, the Democrats/liberals have become CCW permit holders in increasing numbers. When one coworker was interested in getting a gun and a CCW permit, I said, "You? I thought you were against guns?" and she said her family member got robbed and the increased number of crimes in her neighborhood made her change her mind. She asked if I could help her pick out a gun and train her to use it. I smiled big and said, "Well of course!" I was thinking 9mm Glock 19 but she ended up picking 45ACP Glock 36 - she was very excited when she got her CCW permit and encouraged all of her family/friends to do the same - and they did.
Whenever someone tries to argue about gun control, I ask them how a single mother or elderly living in a bad part of the town will protect themselves against multiple criminals/rapists/robbers ...
I see more and more female shooters and elderly shooters at the range practicing these days. Just recently, when I got to the range, I found a grey haired elderly lady shooting a .38 revolver at a human sized target set at 5 yards and missing it. I noticed she lacked the strength to use the DA trigger and was using her thumb to cock the hammer. Her hands were shaking and it was obvious she had arthritis. I didn't even shoot that day. I spent my range session going over the shooting basics and when she produced 3 inch shot groups at 7 yards, she thanked me genuinely.
Gun control laws and magazine restrictions will not help those who really need protection. Shouldn't law makers be working to provide protection for the weak, elderly and the disabled? I read through timmy4's arguments but if he saw enough victims of violent crimes and talked to them, he may have a very different perspective why forums such as THR exists ...
cluck
Member
Precisely why I felt Timmy4 was treated quite fairly. We wouldn't get the same courtesy.
Deanimator
Member
That hints at it, but you didn't actually answer.
I'll answer for you:
Pro-gun comments get deleted, and those posting them get banned.
krupparms
Member
We make ourselves look bad by being rude! Just because others do so it doesn't make it right for us to do the same! I didn't post anything to 'Timmy ' but I do hope he comes back! Free debateing is how we learn & teach! He may change his opinion! We may never know!
I feel that, as a community, in the end we failed with Timmy.
According to him he changed his stance completely on 2 of the 4 issues specifically because of the facts we brought to his attention. We were halfway there and then we lost him.
My feelings are that even if you're "sure" someone's a troll, you should still remain polite & courteous and then contact a Moderator about your suspiciousons and he will take care of it. But if the Mod. doesn't feel the poster is a troll, use your only other option: Refrain from replying in that thread!
According to him he changed his stance completely on 2 of the 4 issues specifically because of the facts we brought to his attention. We were halfway there and then we lost him.
My feelings are that even if you're "sure" someone's a troll, you should still remain polite & courteous and then contact a Moderator about your suspiciousons and he will take care of it. But if the Mod. doesn't feel the poster is a troll, use your only other option: Refrain from replying in that thread!
Deanimator
Member
We in no way "failed".
We refuted his arguments and refused to let him set the terms of debate.
And we did so without being the petulant, bigoted children that anti-gunners are.
He failed because we did so.
They want unquestioning submission.
They didn't get it.
We WON.
Sorry, where is Timmy now? If he truly wished to discuss, why is he not here any longer. When he left his last statement criticizing the mods who bent over backwards to accommodate him, that summed it up for me. Ingratitude in the end. Sorry, I wasn't impressed. So be it.
Was he really here to learn from us, or to convince us of his position?
Was he really here to learn from us, or to convince us of his position?
Constrictor
Member
They delete posts here as well.
We DIDN'T lose him, he ran away. Sorry, I don't think we need a shrine to Timmy. He got special treatment on THR that none of us get I would state and he didn't appreciate that treatment in the end.
Special treatment and he still complained. Go figure. Not impressed. Timmy bypassed difficult questions more often than not. Sorry, but if timmy4 wants to discuss, go for it. He ran away, the mods bent over backwards and he criticized them for that.
How many closed threads have YOU been able to open by a PM to the moderator? Exactly, timmy4 had special treatment and dissed the moderators for treating him in a special manner.
Sorry, but good riddance to an ungrateful person in the end. THR went above and beyond any treatment I have ever had on a liberal website trust me. THR has NOTHING whatsoever to be ashamed.
If you wish to see fireworks, go on a liberal website and try to do a timmy on that page. Good luck is all I can say.
They delete posts here to augment polite discussion. Having had a few of my posts deleted on occasion and perhaps that was the right thing to do to prevent provoking other commentators. It is called the High Road for a reason my friend. I don't always agree when they do that, but in the end, THR is a unique webpage that allows real discussion and keeps the tone of that discussion on topic better than ANY forum I have ever seen.
Hats off to THR, great place for open discussion on firearms. Can't be topped anywhere.
" timmy4 had special treatment and dissed the moderators for treating him in a special manner."
This I totally agree with. And he did run away...but what did he run away from?
Could it have been because everyone kept calling him a TROLL?
Not very THR-like....
This I totally agree with. And he did run away...but what did he run away from?
Could it have been because everyone kept calling him a TROLL?
Not very THR-like....
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
Rome wasn't built in a day. THR planted some seeds in his mind, perhaps they will grow.
Timmy was treated fairly well and is still a member in good standing.
Timmy was treated fairly well and is still a member in good standing.
Sorry, go try to do the same on a liberal site and you will be called much more than a troll. If you don't have thick skin, don't try a timmy4 where you know in advance you are in the minority. Sorry, MOST of the THR posts were not about calling him a troll. He got special treatment and DID not appreciate that in the end. Sorry, no need to build an idol to timmy4 on THR.
PavePusher
Member
I post on Huff'n'Puff, also at Dkos and (until recently) at Democratic Underground. DU banned me after some 5 years. Oh well, quel dommage. I'll fully admit that I lean (heck, tumble) liberal on many issues. But I believe in nearly unfettered Rights under the Second Amendment, and will defend that at every opportunity.
Constrictor
Member
And probably rightly so. But I'm going to bet if you went to a liberal site and posted your pro gun opinions they would delete those posts for the same reason.
NickEllis
Member
I found the "Timmy" threads very helpful, both to the tune of sharpening my own arguments, in discovering the vulnerable and non-vulnerable points of argumentation, and in seeing where there is room for movement in the Statist position. Whether Timmy moved or not, I found the thread more about my own self-discovery than about his progress.
That being said, I think the membership here was overall very effective in their argumentation (assisted by judicious use of the Mod stick), and was able to clearly refute the mag ban, the limits on rounds, and the "assault weapon" ban.
I think it also did very clearly point out that we are vulnerable on the registration/universal FFL transfer topic, and we will have to do a better job of sharpening the talking points. Whereas the other points have immediate negative results on the citizen, it is harder to point out the immediate negatives effects for registration/universal FFL transfers. I felt that the best points brought up here were (a) the actual man-hours required to register 300,000,000 firearms; (b) the load on the system that "instant" background checks are already having on the system, sometimes days, which do have a significant impact on the citizen; (c) only then do I think that the general ineffectiveness of the system can be discussed, since most seem to think "well, it might not be effective, but what's it going to hurt?", etc.
In any case, I found no harm, and a great deal of good, in the mods allowing those threads to continue to the extent they did allow.
That being said, I think the membership here was overall very effective in their argumentation (assisted by judicious use of the Mod stick), and was able to clearly refute the mag ban, the limits on rounds, and the "assault weapon" ban.
I think it also did very clearly point out that we are vulnerable on the registration/universal FFL transfer topic, and we will have to do a better job of sharpening the talking points. Whereas the other points have immediate negative results on the citizen, it is harder to point out the immediate negatives effects for registration/universal FFL transfers. I felt that the best points brought up here were (a) the actual man-hours required to register 300,000,000 firearms; (b) the load on the system that "instant" background checks are already having on the system, sometimes days, which do have a significant impact on the citizen; (c) only then do I think that the general ineffectiveness of the system can be discussed, since most seem to think "well, it might not be effective, but what's it going to hurt?", etc.
In any case, I found no harm, and a great deal of good, in the mods allowing those threads to continue to the extent they did allow.
Timmy stated he has conservative friends that own firearms. He also stated that he didn't talk to his friends about his beliefs because he didn't want to offend them. Too bad. He would have most of his questions answered with 20 minutes of range time. I understand he has a phobia but the only cure for a phobia is to face it.
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Not so. THR deletes inappropriate comments and flags the person who submitted them. THR supported timmy4 and bent over backwards to accommodate him.
That is NOT the treatment you get on a liberal website that blocks those that they don't agree with. Timmy4 is STILL a member in good standing on THR and welcome back at his convenience.
You won't find a THR type of moderation on the liberal sites. You simply won't.
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