Open carry activist at Dallas shooting

[jmorris]

You guys are missing my point entirely. This guy was lucky that he was able to turn himself in. Think about it, in a situation like this, cops come storming in from all over to answer an active shooter call and as soon as they are on scene they see a guy with an AR.

I would have actually been more concerned with the shooter thinking it would be wise to first take out the guy with a rifle.

Neither matter much after the fact. Kind of like wondering what would have happened if your parachute didn't open after you landed safely.

 

[ford8nr]

To start off be clear, I am NOT saying the OC person should have engaged. On the contrary we are taught get out if you can.
However all the mall ninja, Tour of Duty (game) players all say this type of incident is why they carry.
OC in this type of incident puts you at risk of death from the police or shooters. If I was on either side you'd be my first target. That's why I prefer CC.
Not a judgement just a fact.

 

[jmorris]

If I was on either side you'd be my first target.

If you were on the side of the good guys you would then be firing into a crowd fleeing the firefight. Not the best of career moves.

Here is a video of when he approached the police after he found out they were looking for him and turned over his rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OU9MKuKhdQ

Not very dramatic...

 

[stonecutter2]

If you were on the side of the good guys you would then be firing into a crowd fleeing the firefight. Not the best of career moves.

Here is a video of when he approached the police after he found out they were looking for him and turned over his rifle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OU9MKuKhdQ

Considering career moves and repercussions is for well after the event, and news agencies to report on.

Police make decisions and weigh options quickly under a lot of stress. I don't think they're really thinking of their career ramifications. It probably comes down to training and instinct.

 

[ford8nr]

Do you really believe I'm talking about shooting into fleeing crowds ?
But it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe a non-uniformed person running to OR from an active shooter scene would attract attention.

 

[ford8nr]

Here is a video of when he approached the police after he found out they were looking for him and turned over his rifle.

Hats off to the police for handling it appropriately.
That appeared to be away from the shooting scene though.

 

[jmorris]

That appeared to be away from the shooting scene though.

Yes, when the shooting started everyone ran away from the gunfire, including him. That is why you would be firing into a fleeing crowd if you shot at him first.

 

[jmorris]

But it wouldn't be unreasonable to believe a non-uniformed person running to OR from an active shooter scene would attract attention.

That happened too, http://dailycaller.com/2016/07/08/police-stop-dallas-shooter-suspects-on-i-35/

Guy picked up someone from the bus station and cops got them both on I-35. Didn't shoot at them though.

 

[Flynt]

I see some of us on this thread repeating what I consider to be a mistake on the part of some in the media: confusing Texas' new open carry handgun law with our traditional firearms laws. I'm not saying that it was particularly wise for the guy to be toting an AR, but legal open carry of long arms is a tradition in Texas -- open carry of handguns is not.

Texas law has allowed "open carry" of long arms since the 1870's, if not previously. Concealed carry of handguns was strictly limited until about 20 years ago, when the legislature passed a "shall issue" license law and required training. Last year the lawmakers passed open carry for handguns, requiring the same license as for concealed carry.

Some of the confusion may be due to the fact that the open handgun carry advocates got publicity by showing up at fast food joints with rifles and shotguns slung over their shoulders. Again, they were advocating for open handgun carry by exercising their traditionally-recognized right to open carry long arms.

A footnote: We've also seen "long arm open carry" used as a publicity tool by the New Black Panthers, who held several parades in Texas and carried long arms. It reminds me of the original Black Panthers, who marched on the California state capitol in the 60's, legally toting long arms. This prompted the leg to ban open carry.

 

[wally]

A footnote: We've also seen "long arm open carry" used as a publicity tool by the New Black Panthers, who held several parades in Texas and carried long arms. It reminds me of the original Black Panthers, who marched on the California state capitol in the 60's, legally toting long arms. This prompted the leg to ban open carry.

It truly is a footnote, first I've heard of it. Don't see how it has caused any problems. Texas sure ain't California, Thank God!

 

[Flynt]

Quote:
A footnote: We've also seen "long arm open carry" used as a publicity tool by the New Black Panthers, who held several parades in Texas and carried long arms. It reminds me of the original Black Panthers, who marched on the California state capitol in the 60's, legally toting long arms. This prompted the leg to ban open carry.
It truly is a footnote, first I've heard of it. Don't see how it has caused any problems. Texas sure ain't California, Thank God!

It's an interesting story. The Oakland PD and the Panthers were in open warfare at the time. Hope thiis link works:

http://www.pbs.org/hueypnewton/actions/actions_capitolmarch.html

 

[dranrab]

Here's a legal question for you. Did the cops have the right to confiscate his legally carried gun?

 

[ford8nr]

For his protection as well as there's I believe they do. The bigger question when and how does he get it back.

 

[azrocks]

Don't try to make this a racial or 1st Amendment thing. My point (and I stand by it) is that when you pick up a gun, you pick up additional responsibilities. Open carry of a weapon with " shock value" in certain circles at an event which has historically had a potential for violence isn't a good idea. The gentleman carrying the weapon did the right thing post event 100%. No doubt. But for several hours we had pics of him in the news as a "person of interest". It also potentially put him at additional risk. AND at least in my mind, it makes us all look bad.
Opinions vary...your entitled to yours...I'm entitled to mine.

Well said.

My personal opinion is that the guy displayed incredibly poor judgement (that's my way of being nice). Seriously - in the midst of the tensions surrounding the event - who in their right mind brings a rifle to such a potential powder-keg? Of all the times & places to make an open-carry statement, I can't think of a worse time & place than there & then.

I'm 100% in support of open carry, but the open-carry activists I've seen - for the most part - aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. I, for one, most definitely don't wish to be represented by or mistaken for one. They do absolutely nothing but harm to the image of gun owners, despite their attempts to do the opposite.

 

[Flynt]

Well said.

My personal opinion is that the guy displayed incredibly poor judgement (that's my way of being nice). Seriously - in the midst of the tensions surrounding the event - who in their right mind brings a rifle to such a potential powder-keg? Of all the times & places to make an open-carry statement, I can't think of a worse time & place than there & then.

I'm 100% in support of open carry, but the open-carry activists I've seen - for the most part - aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. I, for one, most definitely don't wish to be represented by or mistaken for one. They do absolutely nothing but harm to the image of gun owners, despite their attempts to do the opposite.

I have to agree about the PR downside of the OC advocates. I live in the Dallas suburbs, a very conservative area. I'm been surprised by how many of our neighbors, who are often from other parts of the country and know little about guns, associate gun rights activists with the OC guys, who are often look like pasty-face guys who still live with mom & dad.

 

[BigBore44]

Flfiremedic,
You didn't answer my question...... When IS it appropriate?

 

[silicosys4]

What struck me is the reactions of those who were interviewed concerning their thoughts about seeing a man at that event open carrying a rifle.
I didn't hear a single "oh it was soooo scary, I had to leave!"
To the last person, all I heard was (paraphrasing) "I thought it was a little weird but he wasn't acting dangerous so we didn't think anything of it"
Or, "Oh, he's one of THOSE guys...whatever."
Nobody ran to the police to report a man with a gun, or freaked out.

Nobody interviewed was angry at the man for open carrying and nobody said they felt endangered or frightened. In fact, there are harsher responses in this thread then there were from any of the talking heads on CNN or the witnesses they interviewed about him.

This is not only an example of how an open carry activist can act appropriately, it is an example of how large crowds of people can in fact be oblivious to open carried firearms. It's not a case of automatic panic, death, and chaos
People's attitudes can change with honest exposure.

I'm seeing a lot of anti open carry people saying "yea, I'll bet he's sorry he carried there, got himself named as a person of interest"...What I see though, Is the only person at that event other than the police who were able to defend themselves during their evacuation to safety, who then correctly identified himself and turned his gun over so as to not incur accidents or misidentification.
The fact that he was misidentified then quickly cleared wasn't his screw-up, it was the media's fault for reporting him as a suspect from a source other than official LE release, and a disorganized situation.
Yes it was a self initiating problem.
But I'd love to be able to ask him, if he is sorry he was open carrying at that event.

TBH, I'll take his experience over being unarmed during a shooting like that, If I were forced to be at an event with a shooting.

 

[sequins]

Pretty impressive to me that even in the face of clear, incontrovertible evidence that open carry doesn't get you shot first by either the cops or the perpetrator that some folks still seem to think that's what will happen. Open carry works just fine, get over yourselves.

Furthermore, his carrying a rifle was extremely appropriate. When I am disarmed and ask for equality it is a request. When I am armed and I ask for equality it is a demand, and the people ought to demand equality. It's quite literally why we have a 2nd amendment, so that the government can't ignore you or trample all over you.

Obviously the guy shooting the police is a nut who needed to be stopped, and tbh BLM may have become a terrorist organization, but the root grievance is pretty legitimate and the way to force my government to address my legitimate grievance is with the 2nd amendment.

 

[silicosys4]

Pretty impressive to me that even in the face of clear, incontrovertible evidence that open carry doesn't get you shot first by either the cops or the perpetrator that some folks still seem to think that's what will happen. Open carry works just fine, get over yourselves.

Furthermore, his carrying a rifle was extremely appropriate. When I am disarmed and ask for equality it is a request. When I am armed and I ask for equality it is a demand, and the people ought to demand equality. It's quite literally why we have a 2nd amendment, so that the government can't ignore you or trample all over you.

Obviously the guy shooting the police is a nut who needed to be stopped, and tbh BLM may have become a terrorist organization, but the root grievance is pretty legitimate and the way to force my government to address my legitimate grievance is with the 2nd amendment.

Good points, And we also have to consider that the gunman doesn't seem to have entered the event with the purpose of shooting anyone other than the police. It appears arguable at this point whether the open carrier would have been targeted by the shooter at all.

The importance of this event to me is the publics reaction to the open carry both before and after the event, and the positive interactions with the police that the open carrier had after the shooting began.

There are arguments from both sides that bear consideration, but here is definitely incontrovertible evidence that being caught open carrying at a true mass killing isn't a sure recipe for disaster, and can be accomplished prudently.

 

[yugorpk]

Here's a legal question for you. Did the cops have the right to confiscate his legally carried gun?

They didnt confiscate it. They impounded it. He can go to court and get it back. Its not the job of the police to determine what the laws are and how they are applied. They just keep the peace. The courts make rulings. He'll get his gun back if he hasnt already.

 

[gspn]

What struck me is the reactions of those who were interviewed concerning their thoughts about seeing a man at that event open carrying a rifle.

Nobody ran to the police to report a man with a gun, or freaked out.

That is an interesting observation, and I would agree that exposure to open carry over time can reduce the fear some people may have with it.

It was also interesting to hear the mayor of Dallas say that there were perhaps 20 people in the crowd with rifles and/or body armor. He said that when the shooting began, all of those people with guns ran. The police then chased and caught them all to make sure they weren't involved in any of the shooting.

Those valuable police resources were squandered chasing those people down while a dozen innocent men were on the ground bleeding out and a shooter was still on the loose.

Given that their choice of venue for open carry was at a protest sponsored by a violent anti-police group and seemed to be, as another poster put it "for shock value", I fail to see how wasting those resources at that particular time can be viewed as a victory for open carry advocates.

I'm all for protecting our rights, but I will never point to a group like BLM in an attempt to support anything I do. In my view they are at best a group that has incited violence and murder, and at worst may be a domestic terror group...and I took an oath twice to fight against all enemies foreign and domestic.

 

[jmorris]

Here's a legal question for you. Did the cops have the right to confiscate his legally carried gun?

If you watch the link I posted, he went to them and turned it over.

But yes I have had officers take possession of firearms twice in my lifetime before giving them back to me before we parted ways. They can ask you pretty much anything they want and I have always found making their job as easy as I can also happens to improve my experience as well.

"Yes sir/no sir" is always better than "I know my rights.". It's a job and IMO an under paid less than great job that is too dangerous, where no one likes you, until they need your help.

 

[gspn]

When I am disarmed and ask for equality it is a request. When I am armed and I ask for equality it is a demand, and the people ought to demand equality. It's quite literally why we have a 2nd amendment, so that the government can't ignore you or trample all over you.

In general terms I agree with you. When we get down to the specifics I'd just disagree with his choice of venue. More than one BLM supporter has murdered police officers...that's not a group I'll align my 2A rights with.

 

[FROGO207]

On occasion I will open carry a handgun around here. I do choose when to do it and would not do it purposely for "shock value at a high profile event though. I just do it in the course of my normal days activities so others around me will see a regular guy just doing regular stuff and is not a threat to anybody that is law abiding themselves. This is how it needs to be done IMHO. If we need to do it differently in the future then I might change how I do this though. I agree with those that feel his actions were risky at best although he did nothing wrong legally.

 

[Flfiremedic]

Flfiremedic,
You didn't answer my question...... When IS it appropriate?

I laid out a case for what I think is a bad idea...you seem to be spoiling for a fight for some odd reason-so just like with my ex-wife "whenever it makes you happy dear".