rswartsell
Member
During the period of transition when OC is not common, might a deranged cop hater think you are a cop from the gun on your hip, whether true or not?
If you don't wish to consider the ideas or you disagree, so be it.
you are a bit of a nut for putting yourself at what I deem far more of a risk of falling in harms way
Throw your own experience out there and tell us what observations you have from first hand experience and I personally will consider those too.
I thought the Police shooting incident had merit even if it doesn't meet a narrowly defined definition of what you consider to be "evidence".
During the period of transition when OC is not common, might a deranged cop hater think you are a cop from the gun on your hip, whether true or not?
I'm not debating, I'm challenging stereotypes. Perhaps that's what has you frustrated. I've presented a handful of hypothetical situations that can happen when one open carries that are unlikely to be encountered when one carries concealed.
Quote:
I'll support YOUR right to OC but that won't keep me from thinking you are a bit of a nut for putting yourself at what I deem far more of a risk of falling in harms way.
That does not make me anti-gun/anti 2A or your enemy.
Unfortunately, then you had to follow it up with this. The Brady bunch and their followers say EXACTLY the same things about anyone who carries a gun in any manner. I don't understand why there is the need to say things like this within our community when we get so upset about the anti-gun people saying exactly the same thing.
That's not a question.Welcome bad4dr.
Your point is taken, and the question now is does an OC civilian need to maintain the same awareness?
Take them out of uniform, make 'em plainclothes police, with no weapons visible to betray their status. They're still police officers but the threat and vulnerabilities just changed.They were ambushed because they were police.
What kind of "support" do you want? Political support? You have that from me, I just haven't expressed it. Training support? If it can happen it then it will happen to somebody, somewhere, eventually. Maybe, just maybe, some of those who OC or who are contemplating OC have learned something they've never thought about before and have a greater appreciation of the risks involved. The knowledge gained may empower them to be a little more prepared to mitigate their risk as a result.The problem with everything you're saying is that you have not made one comment in support of a gun owner who has made the personal decision that open carry is best for him. That bothers me.
Shawn Dodson said:What kind of "support" do you want? Political support? You have that from me, I just haven't expressed it. Training support? If it can happen it then it will happen to somebody, somewhere, eventually. Maybe, just maybe, some of those who OC or who are contemplating OC have learned something they've never thought about before and have a greater appreciation of the risks involved. The knowledge gained may empower them to be a little more prepared to mitigate their risk as a result.
You don't support OC in any way, shape or form, but you say you do.
My feelings about open carry?
If you can carry concealed, by all means carry concealed. If you're forced to open carry by law, then beware of the unexpected. Your gun is not a piece of jewelry with magical powers to repel trouble. Open carry relinquishes the element of surprise to any adversary you may encounter.
The gun may attract trouble (people who are "not right in their minds") instead of deterring it.
* Drunks
* Tweakers
* Psychotics/mentally disturbed
* Brazen street thugs who menance and taunt (knowing you'll follow "the rules")
* Malicious anti-gunners who might be willing to lie to have you arrested
And the potential for many other unexpected, inconceivable situations you're not prepared to handle.
Concealed Means Concealed
A very few people carrying guns for the first time feel an irresistible urge to let others see that “they’ve got the power.” First-time carriers and rookie cops, usually young in both cases, may fall into this trap. It is a practice to avoid for several reasons.
In most of this society, the only people the general public sees carrying guns in public are uniformed “protector figures,” such as police officers and security guards. When they see someone not identifiable as such, who is carrying a lethal weapon, they tend to panic. This makes no friends among the voting public for the gun owners’ rights movement—you do not make people into friends and sympathizers, by frightening them—and can lead to a panicky observer getting the wrong idea and reporting you to the police as a “man with a gun.” This can lead to all sorts of unpleasant confrontations.
Moreover, a harasser who has picked you as his victim and knows you carry a gun can create a situation where there are no other witnesses present, and then make the false claim that you threatened him with the weapon. This is a very serious felony called Aggravated Assault. It is his word against yours. The fact that you are indeed carrying the gun he describes you pointing at him can make his lie more believable than your truth, to the ears of judge and jury.
MCRGO, Michigan Coalition of Responsible Gun Owners, is directly responsible for getting reform concealed carry legislation enacted in their state, and has been in the forefront of fighting for the rights of armed citizens in that state. MCRGO’s Steve Dulan, in the organization’s Weekly E’News of 6/23/08, had some cogent points to make on the topic of private citizens carrying handguns visibly in public:
“Open carry of firearms, subject to MCL 750.234d, it is legal to carry a visible pistol in public. MCRGO has not adopted an official position on this subject,” wrote Dulan, who continued, “I agree with Ted Nugent and many others that it is a bad idea in almost every situation. Tactically, you are giving up the element of surprise should you face a deadly force situation. Furthermore, you run the risk of being called in to 9-1-1 as a ‘man with a gun.’ I have been on police ride-alongs when this call comes over the radio. It creates a very dangerous situation for all concerned. I do not carry openly. I have a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and take care to choose a gun and holster that, along with appropriate clothing, allow me to keep my gun concealed unless/until I need it to save a life.”
As cogent and valid as Steve Dulan’s arguments are, it still makes sense to have legal open carry available as an emergency option. If the wind accidentally blows your coat open and reveals the gun, an open carry provision assures you have committed no crime. If someone who has not yet felt the need to get a concealed carry license suddenly begins getting death threats, open carry provides an emergency avenue of self-protection until the paperwork can be processed to acquire the license to carry the weapon discreetly out of sight.
--10 Commandments of Concealed Carry, Concealed Carry Handguns 2009
Written by Massad Ayoob
Your point is taken, and the question now is does an OC civilian need to maintain the same awareness?
I can also remind the police of my sovereignty by, on every possible occasion, going up and shouting "Pig! Jack booted thug! Tool of the Man! Who have you oppressed today pig?" That'll show 'em.You missed the most important one. Only OC reminds police, at every viewing, of who is the sovereign and who is the servant. Who is the user of the Second Amendment and against whom would it be used?
There is no argument against OC that can overcome the right of the People to display force to the government.
Take them out of uniform, make 'em plainclothes police, with no weapons visible to betray their status. They're still police officers but the threat and vulnerabilities just changed.They were ambushed because they were police.
Aside from the fact that two cases don't represent anything other than two cases, percentages are irrelevant. If you wanna play the odds, the odds are you'll never need a gun to defend against a violent crime, so why carry a gun? We carry because of the POSSIBILITY that we may need it to defend against a violent crime, regardless of the odds.I am still trying to figure out why Shawn has not refuted my conclusion that in the case of Lakewood, OC made do difference whatsoever, but in Kennesaw, OC deterred an armed robbery, so it seems to me the odds are that by open carrying in areas similar to Lakewood and Kennesaw that you will deter a crime 50% of the time and the other 50% of the time it just won't matter.
BINGO!Which would make it an altogether different event.
During the period of transition when OC is not common, might a deranged cop hater think you are a cop from the gun on your hip, whether true or not?
Remember that, only a few years ago, CCW was going to lead to blood in the streets. Random shootings over parking spaces. The extinction of school children was at hand.