open carry: worth it?

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Why are you some gun owners so adamant about convincing others that open carry is bad? It's not damaging your cool if others open carry.

Again, in California, and some other states, concealed carry is realistically not an option. So, you should just be glad you even have the options of open carry and concealed carry, instead of trying to convince others open carry is bad. Words have meaning. Adding any momentum to the movement for fewer gun rights is counterproductive to preserving the gun rights we currently have.

I wish I had the luxury of being able to pontificate the finer differences between concealed carry and open carry. You gun owners who complain about open carry have no clue about appreciating freedom. You really don't.
 
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Actually Shawn's analysis of the Lakewood incident is exactly the same as the Brady Campaign's. 4 cops get shot in a coffee shop, nobody else is attacked, only the cops, and Shawn says the problem was the guns.
You're putting words in my mouth.

Lakewood is an example of where a mentally ill attacker surprised and murdered four people in total disregard of the fact that they were open carrying.

We're not in control of our environment when we're in public - we merely react to it. It appears to me that many of those who OC expect "x" to happen; "x" being a presumptive belief that OC will scare away bad guys. Well, what are they going to do if "y", "z", or "a + b" happens? If OC guy is an inexperienced, unprepared, attention craving Dilbert with a gun then a streetwise punk is gonna see through OC guy for the paper tiger that he is. Street thug sees OC guy as a personal challenge and affront to him on his turf. He can walk right up and punch OC guy in the head. The bad guy's not a deadly threat. What's OC guy gonna do about it? The bad guy can taunt, menace and harass OC guy. He can sense self-doubt. He can sense helplessness. What's OC guy gonna do about it? Run away? Overreact (and go to jail)? It isn't an Internet discussion board. It's real life happening in real time.

IMO, OC carries with it far greater peril than loading a defense gun with handloads.
 
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When has someone who was open-carrying been attacked by someone? And how many times has someone who wasn't been attacked? And remember carrying isn't just about the protection it's about exercising a right.
 
I don't open carry, I don't see the need. I want to blend in, I don't want to be noticed or remembered unless I choose to be. That's just my opinion.
I do see the need and I want to make the statement that I will exercise my constitutional right to openly carry whatever kind of weapon that I want to.
 
I’m simply playing the Devil’s advocate.

When you OC you attract attention to yourself and you may quickly find yourself in an encounter with a person “from outside the box” that you may have never conceived (and which may have never unfolded had you CC’d).
 
Shawn Dodson said:
I’m simply playing the Devil’s advocate.

When you OC you attract attention to yourself and you may quickly find yourself in an encounter with a person “from outside the box” that you may have never conceived (and which may have never unfolded had you CC’d).

You don't really expect us to believe that you're merely playing the Devil's advocate, do you? You adamantly are trying to convince others that open carry is bad and unsafe. What's the purpose?

You seem to be coming from a place of assuming everybody who openly carries is dumb. I'm sure people who openly carry have thought about the issues way more than you simply because of the fact they actually have to carry openly. They're on the field, in the game. You're on the sidelines, rooting for the opposing team. They don't need you to enlighten them on the issues or play "the Devil's advocate" as you say.
 
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Shawn,

Nobody here has claimed that open carry will deter every crime.

Let's look at our respective cases that we have presented:

You present 4 Lakewood police officers shot in a coffee shop. You state, and I agree, that open carry of a firearm did not prevent that crime. So we have one case where open carry was not an issue.

I present a case where open carry prevented a planned armed robbery of a Waffle House. The place was scouted out in advance and because of the presence of armed individuals in the Waffle House the robbery was called off.

So we have a 50/50 split where half the time open carry deterred a crime, and half the time it didn't make any difference at all. So, following the cases that we both have presented, if my weapon deters crime 50% of the time, and the other 50% of the time it doesn't matter, the answer to the OP's question, "Open Carry: Worth It?" is yes.

And, BTW, the 50% deterrent value is actually backed up by research done by Peter H. Rossi and James Wright published in their book, Armed and Considered Dangerous: A Survey of Felons and Their Firearms.

Interviewing felony prisoners in ten state correctional systems in 1981...
Fifty-six percent of the prisoners said that a criminal would not attack a potential victim who was known to be armed. Seventy-four percent agreed with the statement that "One reason burglars avoid houses where people are at home is that they fear being shot during the crime."
 
i can personally attest to the fact that OC can be a deterrant. i know of 3 times, where my openly carried firearm discouraged a crime: once, while in a Chinese restaurant, once while walking my dog, and once in convenience store at 2AM. i have no idea if there are more instances.
 
Originally Posted by CZ223
Furthermore, I am beginning to wonder if people who insist on carrying openly are like smokers who insist that they should be able to smoke anywhere. As for idiots who run around public parks with rifles or AK pistols because it is their right, if their is enough public outcry they will cost you your rights.

Ok, with smokers you have to breathe in their smoke if they're "exercising their right" around you.

Last time I checked someone OC a gun doesn't just start shooting around everyone...

I live in an OC state and have only done it twice, I don't like the attention it draws. Both times I kept waiting to be told to lay on the ground with my hands behind my back because some woman called in a "man with a Gun".
 
You don't really expect us to believe that you're merely playing the Devil's advocate, do you? You adamantly are trying to convince others that open carry is bad and unsafe. What's the purpose?
Faulty, presumptive mindsets that believe a gun is a magic trinket:
Is someone besides an LEO really going to mess with someone who's carrying a gun?
It is the mindset of someone who is unprepared for the reality of the street.
 
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Shawn, with great respect for your perspective, you really do need to answer NavyLT's last post to regain some credibility in this debate.

If you cannot refute his statements, then the "reality of the street" appears to be strongly against you.

It would be a shame to lose the point you're making simply due to lack of supporting evidence.

-Sam
 
If I were a cocky gang banger I might want to show off and simply steal your open carry gun because I believe I can get inside your OODA Loop without you realizing it until its too late and totally humiliate you. I'd unload it and throw it back at you. What are you gonna do about it? Shoot me? That's one example of a rational person who'd be willing to attack you, knowing full well that you couldn't do anything about it. And you probably won't call police either.

Golly, Shawn, do you really think people who OC haven't thought about this? Or maybe you envision someone open carrying in one of those Hollywood cowboy rigs? Give us the credit for knowing that a good gun belt and a proper holster are important for keeping your sidearm safe from the snatch 'n grab crowd.
 
Appearing to not have a gun may attract trouble (people who are "not right in their minds") instead of deterring it.
* Drunks
* Tweakers
* Psychotics/mentally disturbed
* Brazen street thugs who menance and taunt (knowing you'll follow "the rules")

And the potential for many other unexpected, inconceivable situations you'd rather avoid.
 
Faulty, presumptive mindsets that believe a gun is a magic trinket: It is the mindset of someone who is unprepared for the reality of the street.

Really, interesting, how do you draw this conclusion? What evidence do you have that supports that statement?

For many years I personally didn't carry any weapons whatsoever, because of the potential mental scrambling that can occur if your attacker dispossesses you of it or worse gains possession of it, if you don't have a weapon that can't occur, if your attacker does, and they lose it or you gain possession of it, then they're at a huge disadvantage. That was my mindset, it's not everyone's, but I spent probably more time training (both as a hobby and professionally) in unarmed and armed combat than some people here have been alive.

Indeed from the back and forth we had, I'd consider your presumptions to be far more faulty. As I explained to you back in post # 90 you're blaming a mechanism to carry a tool on a failure in mindset you have not yet addressed that. You are examining an event (open carrying) without regard for any possible preparations prior to that event, and drawing to be quite frank a very patronizing conclusion. That conclusion being the OC crowd haven't considered that someone may be attracted by their visible display of their firearm, and that's an unlikely consideration with the large majority of anti-OC, pro-CC shouting that to the heavens every time we have this kind of thread.

You're also disregarding a large body of published evidence that shows that except in a few cases most criminals will not attack a known armed victim, which is by it very nature is a non-deterrent for concealed carry. Sure in the 1% chance of the 1% chance you might attract the attention of some nut who wants to chance their arm.

Ultimately as I've said open carry, concealed carry, or unarmed people do get attacked, frequently because they do something stupid that makes them a target (no such thing as a random crime), OC has the advantage by the attention it garners of never letting someone who OC's from forgetting that they're armed, and thus maintains their attention, while forgetting your armed with concealed carry in highly unlikely, there is not the constant reinforcement. It also extends to a small degree the latitude in doing something stupid and getting away with it. Sure by open carrying you incidentally make yourself the target in maybe 1 in 10,000 crimes. Which is as I said something you can account for with mindset.

While the Lakewood situation happened and the criminal was not deterred by OC, at the same time OC did not attract the attack anymore than JFK being in an open top limo attracted LHO (assuming it was LHO and not the CIA, Mafia, Cubans whoever).

Now that said, OC is a personal choice, no one who OC's is saying you should they might give reasons generally public education reasons, personal and political reasons why they open carry, or sometimes defensive reasons why they do. These are all valid reasons, there are equally valid reasons to CC. Most people who OC (who don't find CC registration offensive, or cannot get a permit [Californians]) CC too. They're not trying to convince people who don't OC that they should, nor is this thread about that, it's about whether you do. I've already answered that question on here. It's not my place to argue what someone else should or should not do, I will however defend my choices.
 
i am OCing when i take my jacket off but when my jacket or coat is on i am CCing. OC is only worth it when your traveling with someone who is also OCing that way they got your back as a star witness.
 
When you OC you attract attention to yourself and you may quickly find yourself in an encounter with a person “from outside the box” that you may have never conceived (and which may have never unfolded had you CC’d).

While if you carry concealed you may find yourself needing to draw your weapon on an armed attacker or robber who would have never chosen you out of the flock to begin with if they knew you were armed.

The argument goes both ways.

Most criminals don't want to get caught. Going around messing with armed people, even if the criminal could get the element of surprise means they are likely to have to shoot. Shooting people is a good way to get caught and imprisoned for life.
They usually want to victimize people and get away with it.
Shooting also tends to be loud and noticed. Attracting attention during the course of their crime is going to be counterproductive.

The vast majority of violent criminals look for situations they won't have to fire a gun at all, never mind risk being shot. So you are actually more likely to be a victim concealed carrying than open carrying.
The same thing that gives you the element of surprise gives you a lack of deterrent.
If a criminal is really going to intentionally take on an armed man and the associated risks there is much more lucrative targets than your typical citizen.
 
I OC and CCW. I even will say I did CCW before it was a law here because when I OC sometimes I was even asked by a LEO to "cover than thing up" so as to not freak out the well, gun hater freaks. Now I CCW. If I did not have a CCW I would still CCW because not only is it MISD here in NM but i could tell LEO that another LEO asked me to cover it up. I am glad that when they did pass CCW here in NM they did not outlaw OC like they basically did almost everywhere else.
 
Shawn, I think that is so far out. It is so normal to see someone who is OC that MAY be a detective or a security officer or even FBI that doesn't have to or for some reason isn't displaying a badge that no one in their right mind would want an encounter with this person OC'ing. I oC all the itme and never have anyone say anything except LEos who as I have said asked me to cover it up.....
 
It is so normal to see someone who is OC that MAY be a detective or a security officer or even FBI that doesn't have to or for some reason isn't displaying a badge that no one in their right mind would want an encounter with this person OC'ing...

That's a great point. I know detectives that on duty sometimes look like a businessman with a Glock on their hip, and at other times look like a bubba with a Glock on their hip. People don't seem to be inspired to harass them under either circumstance.

Les
 
No offense Full Metal Jacket, The dude can ask a question that has been asked over and over. He might not have read all the posts you have. He also got 5 pages of people to respond. It even caught your attention.
 
Ive seen moderators lock a thread for far less than this one has gotten too, I am also shocked not too see a moderator chiming in. This has gotten out of hand. Theres a few points made here, one of them by shawn himself.
Open Carry Pros and Cons

Pros

-open carry can deter certain crimes from happening
- states that you believe in the right and no one shall infringe upon it
- can help you have certain tactial situations
-more comfortable in certain enviroments
-attracts wanted attention

Cons

-attracts unwanted attention
-can get you in a lot of drama
-shawns point some people may choose you as a target

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I can understand what you are saying shawn that some people may choose to mess with you if you open carry, heres my argument to this case,
what is the ratio between people attacking you for open carrying and people being detered from open carrying, honestly i believe more people are detered by open carry than attracted. But hey we could also bring up the argument that we can get struck by lighting as well. Point is most of realize the fact that there are some crazy people who want to do harm, but thats a risk some of us are willing too take.

I also believe that open carry should be picked among your enviroment as some others have mentioned, the odss of someone doing major harm to you in a small town are a lot less than say downtown atlanta? Open cary is a choice and should be used with a lot of thinking before acting, ask yourself what you plan to open carry for, I open carry in a small town because it makes a simple statement, im pro guns for self defense. I would never open carry in a place that has high crime.

Common sense and odds of your situation should be used
 
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