Open Carry

[Lucky Derby]

I rarely OC, but I do on occasion. I also like being able to take my jacket off when I sit down at a restaurant.
Now when I first moved to CO, OC was my only legal option for a while. Depending on the county it takes anywhere from a couple of weeks to three months to get a CHP here. That's after you take a class and submit the paperwork.
When I arrived, money was tight. so it was about 3 months before I could afford the class and the fees for the permit. So I OCed. The county I lived in took about a month to process the permit, so I think it took about 5 months, IIRC.
While I prefer CC, I think most of the worries about OC are over stated.

 

[Speedo66]

When you open carry, you give a thug a target. If he decides he wants your gun, he's not going to be deterred by it, he'll just shot you in the back and take it. You'll never see it coming.

Out hunting or hiking is one thing, urban environment is another. To the person who asked why he needed a good retention holster, are you serious? Ever ride an elevator? Take a bus or a subway? Been in a crowd or on a line?

People try to take officers guns all the time. What makes anyone here think they can retain it better than someone probably younger, in better physical condition, who continued specific training to prevent this, and carries a retention holster?

Sometimes the answers here are mind boggling.

 

[Dean1818]

Well, it looks like OC is coming to the GREAT STATE OF TEXAS

For me personally, I believe that I will continue to only OC when hunting.

For me personally, I feel the CC gives me the full constitutional right offered.

For me personally...... I think there is a time and a place for everything

There MAY be times in a crowded urban setting, that an OC, may not be the best choice.


I always look at deadly force as a last resort.

I WILL NOT be the CC person that puts his life on the line to protect $38 in the Quicktrip cash register......

Its just not worth it to me.



If I am in an OC situation, and a theft occurs, I wonder if I would be drawn into the fight if I am OCing.

As a CC holder, I can stay descrete, and choose my battles.


Either way.

I am split on the topic.

I am happy that I will soon have a new gun right, even though I may not use it.
But.... I do fear, if some people act poorly with this right, that both CC and OC may be
negatively effected.

I am quite honestly embarrased as a gun owner of the folks that decided to OC rifles all over
city areas as some political statement. To me this choice makes all gun owners look poorly.

There IS a time and a place for everything


I hope the 100% OC crowd continues to be responsible

It wont take many times where individual poor choices, will effect the hard
earned rights (and choices of others)

 

[ACP]

I'm opposed to open carry. I think any "pro gun message" you think you may be sending to the public is undercut by the "I have a gun, shoot me first" message to any criminals intent on committing felonious action.

 

[Tirod]

We've been OC for about two years now. I get customers in the auto parts store on a weekly basis who Open Carry. I notice, but many apparently don't.

I do recognize one or two as gun store employees. They seem to be carrying their own, not displaying high end merchandise for sale. Most are not overtly using LEO grade retention holsters.

The reason you want an extra level of retention are the same reasons LE wants extra retention. You don't want a bad guy to be able to snatch your gun from your holster easily wether in struggle or in a snatch and run in a crowded public location.

Is this fearmongering? Just how many snatches are going on? Check the stats - there are more home intrusions than perps grappling with OC citizens. The streets aren't as mean as they are sometimes portrayed.

Thugs are no different than you or me - they assess the risk of an activity and then decide if it's going to work for them. Let me suggest that of two people on the street they may choose to assault, the one who conceal carries is going to appear less risky, all other things being equal.

Goes to what I said about how some people are appraised - someone of lesser build who appears to have few skills will be considered on sight to be less able to defend themselves, compared to another of slightly larger build who may be in more robust shape.

The first - who could be openly armed - may well still be evaluated as an easier target than the second. After all, the perp is considering this in terms of an ambush - as the description of a disarm and theft describes. Simply approach, pull gun in a threatening manner, and take the other one. He saw a gun that looked "cute" and took it by force. The individuals build and make up didn't impress him one bit armed as he was.

A retention holster would be a waste of money in that circumstance. Why grapple when a perp just has to get the drop on his victim? That invites a question - did OC actually escalate the attempt by another to demonstrate the thugs belief he had more power?

"I saw this dude with a little popgun and took it from him. Lame."

Accessorizing your wardrobe with a cool gun isn't going to work for everyone all the time. Fine for a barbecue in Waco, not so much in some other 'hood.

We aren't LEO's who run to the sound of gunfire, nor are we looking to grapple with thugs to put them in cuffs. A retention holster might be a good thing for some, but the idea of making it a blanket application for everyone - no.

For those who prefer pocket carry, or use an airline type shoulder holster because they are in a vehicle all day, a retention duty belt holster isn't the best recommendation.

We are still on a learning curve with this, and just like telling someone they must use a full size double stack service pistol as their carry weapon, some of it may not apply to everyone.

 

[Ironicaintit]

I carry concealed when out amongst the hordes, and openly when at my place, or running around in the wilds.
You can study stats, and listen to all of the arguments for or against either, and never reach a satisfactory conclusion.
For me, it came down to; if i were a criminal with little to no care for human life, what would I do?
I would take out known armed people first.
And so, im perfectly happy blending in with the herd of sheep.

We are all lucky that most criminals are on the "low watt bulb" end of the scale.

 

[BSA1]

The reason you want an extra level of retention are the same reasons LE wants extra retention..

Hummm. Well I don’t have the same responsibility as a LEO. Whereas a LEO has the legal duty to investigate citizen complaints, interview persons engaging in unusual or illegal activity, pursue and apprehend suspects / criminals I do not have any of those duties nor do I have any reason to do so.

My only responsibility is to myself and to those whom I choose to defend. In fact I am known on the this forum as the biggest coward that ever lived. I have a yellow streak a mile wide that runs down my back. If I think trouble starts I am leaving. If you threaten me or try to provoke a confrontation I am backing down. Retreat whenever possible is always my first action.

You don't want a bad guy to be able to snatch your gun from your holster easily wether in struggle or in a snatch and run in a crowded public location.

A assumption on your part but even so why do I need a Level II or III or IV or V or any other type of security holster you think deem necessary?

You are assigning your lack of ability and lack of knowledge of self-defense to me and others. You are making a dangerous and false assumption that I am only carrying one weapon and I don't know how to use it and other defensive tactics. In fact I carry two weapons.

In addition there are very few documented successful incidents of a person that was open carrying having his handgun taken from his holster.

No I'm not saying someone carrying concealed should be less aware, but open carrying means you have to conscious of the fact that a seen firearm escalates a situation.

Again. A assumption on your part that you have not supported with facts.

The converse of your argument is the sight of firearm causes the aggressor to stop his behavior and deescalates the situation. Research has shown that the displaying a firearm by a civilian has been done millions of times successfully has ended the confrontation peacefully. It is proven repeatedly that the fact a LEO is armed causes a aggressive person to stop his actions.

There is a reason the Secret Service conceal carries in protection situations. They don't want the bad guys to know what firearm they have and where they have it.

WOW! I never would have guessed that the security detail assigned to protect the most powerful man in the world are carrying guns!!!

AGAIN you have not provided any documentation to support your assumption.

Well I don’t know what “tactical” means to you. You are ignoring the advantages of open carry that have already been discussed.

IF you are open carrying, you are either going to have to use it or hand it over to the bad guys

AGAIN you have not provided any documentation to support your assumption.

This topic has been discussed many time on THR with folks like yourself making claims that they cannot support with any evidence or documentation.

 

[Lord Teapot]

I suspect most situations are uncommon that result in SD shootings. I just feel like that OC makes you a target in an armed robbery. Concealed carry gives you the option of waiting and deciding to present your weapon when you think it's best. Not every bad guy wants to use a gun, and most are concentrating on store employees and worried about the gun possibly hidden behind the counter in those siuations. I'd much rather have the bad guy or guys think I'm just another innocent bystander than to percieve me as a threat immediately.

The flip sid of this, and a plus for OC, is that if they case the place they may not act if they see someone open carrying. Car jackings are very common in the Detroit area, I suspect that if someone is open carrying they simply don't become a traget for a carjacker. I'm not saying OC is wrong, just that the tactical considerations are different.

i agree 100% with this post ^

 

[HexHead]

At least from my experience, the whole generation that Liberals hate guns is media hype.

Then how do you explain the whole liberal anti-gun agenda?

 

[HexHead]

i never thought open carry made much sense

the point of carrying my gun is to protect myself, why would i show anyone who potentially seeks to do me harm;

1) that i have it

2) where it is

just my two cents

How do you think the Cold War would have gone if the Soviets didn't know we had nukes?

 

[Dean1818]

Then how do you explain the whole liberal anti-gun agenda?

Be careful

This will get this thread closed......


Some people keep believing the unbelievable........ you wont change them

 

[HexHead]

Lethal force incidents/line of duty deaths(not traffic or vehicle accidents) of US law enforcement officers have increased about 89% in the last 2 years,

That has nothing to do with them being targeted because they open carry. They're being targeted because they are cops.

 

[BSA1]

For me, it came down to; if i were a criminal with little to no care for human life, what would I do

The fact that I little or no regard for your life doesn't mean I don't place very high value on my life. The vast majority of criminals in the U.S. want to survive. Their primarily tactics are to either commit a crime when no one is present, such as burglary, and to attack targets they believe are not armed, such as the elderly, certain types of businesses, etc.

There are two common types of crimes in the U.S. where the aggressors assigns little value to his own life;

The first is murder / suicide. In this type of crime the victim is almost always someone involved in close relationship such as a family member(s), i.e. (ex)wife, girlfriend, parents, children. This also can involve workplace violence. The victims are unarmed and the intention of the attacker is to commit suicide after harming his victims.

The other situation involves mentally ill or in common terms a crazy person. There are actually very, very few of these types of crimes in America. The trial of move theater shooter Holmes is a good example of trying to prove insanity. I will point that Holmes had a strong will to survive as he surrendered peacefully when the police arrived.

 

[HexHead]

The bottom line is a gun is a thing of value. If you carry it openly in a way that a criminal can see, that criminal may just try to rob you of that valuable item.

Guess I'd better stop wearing my Rolex too.

 

[RustyShackelford]

I rarely OC, but I do on occasion. I also like being able to take my jacket off when I sit down at a restaurant.
Now when I first moved to CO, OC was my only legal option for a while. Depending on the county it takes anywhere from a couple of weeks to three months to get a CHP here. That's after you take a class and submit the paperwork.
When I arrived, money was tight. so it was about 3 months before I could afford the class and the fees for the permit. So I OCed. The county I lived in took about a month to process the permit, so I think it took about 5 months, IIRC.
While I prefer CC, I think most of the worries about OC are over stated.

I agree with LD's remarks. 95-99% of the time you may OC with a handgun in a regular holster with basic retention-security you'll be A-okay, .
Unless you choose to be in high crime areas or places where a unstable or intoxicated person might try a gun grab, you'll be alright.
In reality, your pistol or revolver will tumble out or flip out when you reach for a item in a supermarket or lean down to open a vehicle gas cap.
Some THR members seem to think as soon as the start to OC, they will be in a Walker, Texas Ranger episode; fighting off armed robbers or thugs.
Sworn LEPs(law enforcement professionals) use retention holsters because like the 4th of July brawl example, they are working around or near criminals or intoxicated subjects.
If you have health, medical or mobility issues & choose to OC a pistol-revolver, carrying a smaller-snub back-up isn't a bad idea. If you have a gang member or vicious thug snatch your main weapon, you can access your BUG.
Many LEPs carry 2 guns on duty. They often use a pistol where the full size magazines can fit either semi auto pistol. For example; you can tote a Glock 22/23 .40S&W then keep a Glock 27 .40 as a back up.
Carrying OC is not complex or hard, just use common sense & good judgement.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Guess I'd better stop wearing my Rolex too.

Yes and stop driving your car, and then go camouflage your house, and don't wear expensive shoes.

You took my post out of context. All I meant is that if you have ANYTHING of value visible, there is in fact a CHANCE someone will try to take it from you. That chance is very small in my opinion.

I really think the idea that if you open carry you make yourself a target is being totally overstated in this thread. If I chose to open carry more often than I do, someone snatching my gun would not be terribly high on my list of things I'd be worrying about.

 

[buck460XVR]

When I carry, I carry for self defense as I presume most do. In a conflict, the element of surprise is everything. I'm not giving that up by open carrying.

Want to look cool open carrying, do it in your house.

I'm bettin' the percentage of folks that OC trying to be cool is very similar to the percentage of CWCers that do it for the "cool" factor. The later also tend to talk brazenly about their superiority of tactical elements such as surprise. It always amazes me how much folks worry about the appearance of their primary CWC weapon and how fancy their holster is. Those constant questions of "which grips look better on my EDC?" or "should I refinish mt EDC 1911 because of the idiot scratch?" or "how do you'all like my new hand tooled holster? I went with the extra fancy scroll-work!" sound more like a "trying to look cool" than a tactical advantage. Same goes for the "Hey, I did the Wal-Mart walk today!".

Folks need to get over the impression that they are Dick Tracy and everyone else that carries a firearm fro SD is Elmer Fudd. Folks carry a weapon for many reasons.......SD is only one of them. Presuming that everyone is like you, and/or their reasons for carry are exactly like yours, is pretty lame. Insinuating that those other reasons are somehow inferior to yours is also pretty lame. Folks need to evaluate their reasons for carrying, both open and concealed. They need to determine what will work best for them in certain situations and not feel the need to belittle those with other situations, they know absolutely nuttin' about. Criticizing and belittling fellow gun owners, who are doing nuttin' wrong legally or ethically, only because they are not doing things exactly as me, is also pretty lame.

I both OC and CWC regularly. I seriously consider the need, where I will be going and what I will be doing before I strap either on. Many times I carry both. Thats' really cool.........

 

[Mainsail]

I’ve been an advocate of, and practicing, open carry for over ten years. I will be the first one to tell you that open carry isn’t for everyone or every situation. YOU have to weigh the risk vs gains for YOUR environment. Is it more advantageous to deter? Is it preferable to hide?

Do you visit a lot of convenience stores? I’ve watched countless surveillance videos of stop-&-robs getting robbed and never once did the robber check the beltlines of the customers first. Concealed carry might allow you to slink away better than open carry, if that’s the type of person you are, but should that be given more weight than deterrence?

What is the primary threat where you live? The outliers, like planned coordinated bank heists are not a primary concern anywhere- there are too few of them. Yes, be prepared for worse case, but weigh it carefully. Listening to the scanner when I lived in Tacoma I discovered the most frequent type of robbery was one guy walking down the street minding his own business when a carload of dirtbags pull up, stop, and rob him. (Public transpo robbers are common too, but I discount those because I don’t ride the busses.) Walking in the park, parking garages, even eating in a restaurant are higher risk than some of what gets mentioned as a reason not to OC.

I’ve been openly carrying for a long time now, posting about it, even wrote an essay on it, discussed it with total strangers, and the feedback I’ve gotten from people, after I’ve whittled down their silly objections (that even they admit are silly), is that some people are embarrassed to have it known they carry a gun, or they are just flat-out afraid of carrying openly. While the not the best reason, at least it’s an honest one.

Surprise? So you’re saying it is preferable to wait until someone has a knife to your or your loved one’s throat before you play your surprise? You DO realize that even if you prevail it’s going to cost you. Go ahead, surprise that druggy and bust a cap in him, teach him a lesson he might not have a chance to forget. Do you think your wife or child standing next to you will ever be the same? Do you think you will be? Unless you have a lot of witnesses you’ll likely be in front of a grand jury or facing civil action. Worth it?

Ask ANYONE who was involved in a self-defense shooting and they’ll tell you- they wish they were never there that day- they wish they’d stayed in bed. I don't want to be the hero that taught the dirtbag a lesson, I don't want to fight my way out of a hole, I don't want to ever shoot anyone. To meet those goals I prefer avoidance, and one way to avoid the fight is to deter it before it begins.

 

[X-Rap]

This whole debate sounds like it's happening in the Texas State House.
Retention holsters, unqualified individuals, making a mark of yourself, loss of rights because of those exercising them, scaring the public when will blood in the streets be claimed.
Sounds like a bunch of worry wort antis claiming the sky is falling.
For everything there is a time and place that best suits any given mode or method and true freedom allows us as individuals to decide those parameters.
I frankly believe we'd be much better off directing all this energy to why any gov should be able to say what kind of holster or whether or not it should be visible or hidden.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by RustyShackelford:

95-99% of the time you may OC with a handgun in a regular holster with basic retention-security you'll be A-okay.

I have no basis for evaluating the likelihood, but if that estimate of the odds that I will be "A-okay" is anywhere near right, I'm not doing that. A one to five percent probability that something bad will happen to me is far too high for my liking.

Unless you choose to be in high crime areas or places where a unstable or intoxicated person might try a gun grab, you'll be alright.

With that I do not agree. Gas stations, ATMs, and parking lots near main roads that provide escape routes for mobile criminals may not be "high crime areas" per se, but to borrow a phrase from Tom Givens, they are veritable oases in the Serengeti for violent criminal predators.

Nor is the "unstable or intoxicated" person the only risk. Two or more persons out to do evil for purposes of gain are more of a worry. Most--not all, but most--crimes of violence in our area involve more than one perp. The biggest exception involves stick-ups at branch banks.

That retention holster won't do much good if one is stuck or stabbed from benind at the gas pump.

All of that, except for the "gun grab", applies equally to any citizen, but the openly displayed firearm will obviously provide some additional temptation, as would a Rolex, fine camera, a laptop, an iPhone, or jewelry. Of course, none of the others would provide any inherent deterrence.

 

[entropy]

It's a non-issue to me. One of the guys from a local gun shop open carries (usually an S&W 386, IIRC) all the time into my work. (Wally World) I just nod, and say 'hey, how's it goin?' I've seen a few others do it around the area, though none in my small town. I've done it mostly during hunting season, no one seems to notice or care. I prefer CCW normally, though.

 

[jcwit]

It's fairly common here in No. Indiana, I frequently do so myself during the hot & humid months. Have never seen or heard any comments about it.

I get many, many Thank You's tho for my Veteran cap. That is noticed and made note of.

 

[X-Rap]

All of that, except for the "gun grab", applies equally to any citizen, but the openly displayed firearm will obviously provide some additional temptation, as would a Rolex, fine camera, a laptop, an iPhone, or jewelry. Of course, none of the others would provide any inherent deterrence.

Then of course there is the ubiquitous ladies purse as well as the concealed mans wallet which at least 9 of 10 men are carrying.
We are all marks in the criminals eyes.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Ask ANYONE who was involved in a self-defense shooting and they’ll tell you- they wish they were never there that day- they wish they’d stayed in bed. I don't want to be the hero that taught the dirtbag a lesson, I don't want to fight my way out of a hole, I don't want to ever shoot anyone. To meet those goals I prefer avoidance, and one way to avoid the fight is to deter it before it begins.

Very well said. For someone who is not a law enforcement officer, this is a very healthy and practical attitude to have, as well as a legally and ethically astute.

 

[BSA1]

That retention holster won't do much good if one is stuck or stabbed from benind at the gas pump.

Nor does that gun that is inaccessible due to being concealed.

How many people that were open carrying have been stuck or stabbed from behind at the gas pump compared to those that were carrying concealed?