Open Carry

[RustyShackelford]

Stay alert stay alive ....

A few months ago, a member put up a clear, well made CCTV-DV image-footage of a middle aged woman being attacked & car-jacked at a gas pump around 4-430am.

The video shows the viewer how the thug snuck up behind the woman(who was using the gas pump, looking at the machine).
This crook used stealth & the low-light/lay out to gain a tactical advantage.
If the woman was sharp or had any formal training, she would have scan 360 degrees for threats-other vehicles. Situational awareness or being alert helps whether you are OCing or CCing.
Pumping gas or buying items at 430am in a urban or metro area should have you on at least a higher level of caution.

Rusty

 

[dusty14u]

I always remember this incident in Virginia from a few years ago. I lived in the Hampton Roads area and open carry was fairly common there. This incident was in Richmond and had an OC person carrying a honking big SA revolver and the bad guy walked right by him and robbed the place. It received alot of press back then and it certainly did not support many of the " you will be a target and shot first" crowd. The OC person saved quite a few lives that day.

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/gun...mond-va-golden-market-shooting/#axzz3bjw01EcW

I think trying to say a bad guy will do xyz is assuming alot. Situations can unfold quickly and change just as quick.

 

[RustyShackelford]

True dat! ...

Very true!
In the late 2000s I did security work at a low end extended place in a urban area.
I went to check on a couple who might have ODed on illegal drugs. I had a fire-rescue firefighter with me. As I knocked on the hotel door I saw a nude female laying on the bed. I knocked again and then, since no one answered or responded the fire-fighter & I made entry. As we opened the door, a unresponsive male slumped over the doorway and we both jumped about 10 feet in the air!
The point is never assume or be complacent when in the public. As noted, things or events can change rapidly. Be aware of who or what is around you. Teach your children how to behave or respond in emergencies if they are with you.
A robbery in progress or critical incident is not the time to make choices or learn new methods.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BSA1:

[In response to "That retention holster won't do much good if one is stuck or stabbed from benind at the gas pump" ] Nor does that gun that is inaccessible due to being concealed.

Concealed weapons are only rarely inaccessible, or we would not carry them. Sometimes when they are (as in the case of a strapped in driver), we carry a second firearm that is accessible.

The point is two-fold: (1) retention holsters have limited effectiveness, and (2) persons who have decided to attack a person known to be carrying a weapon can be expected to do so by surprise and in a very violent manner.

How many people that were open carrying have been stuck or stabbed from behind at the gas pump compared to those that were carrying concealed?

No one knows. No one assembles detailed reports.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by X-Rap:

Then of course there is the ubiquitous ladies purse as well as the concealed mans wallet which at least 9 of 10 men are carrying.

Do not forget car keys, if the person's is enervating or exiting his or her car.

We are all marks in the criminals eyes.

Do not overlook the significant differences among "marks" in terms of attractiveness to criminals. The tourist with two big Canon DSLR cameras around his neck is much more likely to be targeted than a schoolchild with a backpack.

A firearm has more than one kind of value in terms of attractiveness; it can be converted to cash, or it can be used by the criminal.

But it would reasonably be expected to have some deterrent value in addition, at least in some circumstances.

How much? Depends on the circumstances, on who and how many are in neighborhood, and on the objectives of the attackers.

Personally, my concealed firearm does not really make me feel "safe", and if I carried it openly, it would make me feel less so....

...unless I happened to be in an area in which a number of citizens were carrying openly.

In such circumstances, it would be rather risky for two or three attackers to attack one open carrier and get away with it.

 

[BSA1]

Concealed weapons are only rarely inaccessible, or we would not carry them. Sometimes

My point is if someone carrying a gun is surprised and has a gun or knife at this back it doesn't make any difference whether his gun is open or concealed carry. The person is in equally deep do-do.

Drawing a concealed firearm means you are telegraphing your intentions as it is necessary to move the covering garment.

...unless I happened to be in an area in which a number of citizens were carrying openly.

Just as with concealed carry movement getting started and widespread acceptance it takes one person at a time.

As in the movie Oh Brother Where Art Thou come on in. The water is fine.

 

[Iggy]

Since Ol Wild Bill Hickok cleaned up the streets of Cheyenne back in 1876 by leaving for the Black Hills, there hasn't been much call for open carry.

I get along just fine with my shootin' iron concealed.

 

[GEM]

Here is a question or two?

Would you open carry in hipster ville - like Whole Foods (probably has a ban sign anyway, but you get the idea)?

Answer - why sure!

Would you open carry in a crowded crime ridden, neighborhood? One that has a high level of interpersonal violence?

You can't say you won't go to the latter. The question is if you had to, would you open carry and stroll through the crowds?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by BSA1:

My point is if someone carrying a gun is surprised and has a gun or knife at this back it doesn't make any difference whether his gun is open or concealed carry. The person is in equally deep do-do.

And my point is that if a victim is carrying openly, the only way to get to him is to shoot him or hit him from behind, violently and by surprise. Any other victim may at least have a chance, because there is less chance that an attack, should it occur, would happen that way.

Drawing a concealed firearm means you are telegraphing your intentions as it is necessary to move the covering garment.

By the time it is necessary for me to draw, I could care less about who may think what about my "intentions".

 

[GEM]

I've read that 30% of police are shot with their own gun. Of course the denizens of the Internet have stronger gung-fu than the officers.

Unless you choose to be in high crime areas or places where a unstable or intoxicated person might try a gun grab, you'll be alrigh

So one only OCs in an area where it safe? So that implies it is just for show to the soccer moms?

 

[Lord Teapot]

How do you think the Cold War would have gone if the Soviets didn't know we had nukes?

pretty badly for them they found out we did?

 

[RustyShackelford]

forum topics ....

Open vs concealed carry is a hotly debated topic that neither side seems to sway or be won over on.

Like the previous member posted, when you OC a few times with your normal lifestyle or routine you'll see how little if at all it affects your daily life.

If you want to OC fine. If you want to carry concealed, fine.

What you decide to use or why is your choice.

That's it.
Rusty S

 

[Mainsail]

I've read that 30% of police are shot with their own gun. Of course the denizens of the Internet have stronger gung-fu than the officers.

Police are not shot with their own guns because the bad guy wants a gun, they get shot while losing their gun in the struggle to take the bad guy into custody- something a private citizen never does.

If that's your argument against open carry then I suspect you're hiding something, because that argument is completely nonsensical. Why does open carry frighten you? [Deleted]

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Mainsail:

Police are not shot with their own guns because the bad guy wants a gun, they get shot while losing their gun in the struggle to take the bad guy into custody- something a private citizen never does.

That would seem to make sense as a generalization, but it is not always true.

On February 7, 2008, Charles Lee Thornton shot Officer Thomas Biggs, who was walking away from him, for the purpose of obtaining his S&W . 40 caliber pistol, to increase his firepower.

If that's your argument against open carry then I suspect you're hiding something, because that argument is completely nonsensical. Why does open carry frighten you?

GEM simply made an observation. I, for one, do not believe that as argument, it would be "completely nonsensical".

Nor do I see a basis for any inference that open carry "frightens" the poster.

 

[Lord Teapot]

Police are not shot with their own guns because the bad guy wants a gun, they get shot while losing their gun in the struggle to take the bad guy into custody- something a private citizen never does.

If that's your argument against open carry then I suspect you're hiding something, because that argument is completely nonsensical. Why does open carry frighten you? You should seek counseling.

there's a difference between being anti-open carry, and choosing to maintain the tactical advantage by not revealing the location and presence of one's personal firearm. i don't think anyone in this thread has argued that open carry should be illegal, or said that they fear open carry, this is a debate about the merits or lackthereof of open carry vs concealed carry.

 

[HexHead]

pretty badly for them they found out we did?

And even worse for us as they could have attacked with theirs first, not fearing retaliation.

 

[rbernie]

Going by the commentary at the LGS, I think that more folk in Texas are happy about open carry because it eliminates the concerns over printing and exposure of a otherwise concealed weapon than for any other reason.

 

[X-Rap]

Going by the commentary at the LGS, I think that more folk in Texas are happy about open carry because it eliminates the concerns over printing and exposure of a otherwise concealed weapon than for any other reason.

Exactly, the percentage of ardent 100% OC carriers is probably a very small minority but those of us who don't want charges for having a shirt or jacket blow up or gun print under a light shirt welcome any relaxation of law that frankly makes no sense and isn't the governments business.
In the hottest months I will also carry a small (G26) IWB or OWB but either is very inconspicuous.
During outdoor activities or chores I also carry OWB.
The ones who carry a hogleg in a Buscadero Rig or Overt Duty Belt are the rarity but they do admittedly exist in very small numbers.

 

[benEzra]

Unless you choose to be in high crime areas or places where a unstable or intoxicated person might try a gun grab

Such as the sporting goods aisle at Walmart?

http://bearingarms.com/felon-attacks-open-carrier-weapon-washington-walmart/

I believe open carry should be legal, but being targeted for the weapon is indeed a valid concern. Had the carrier not moved aggressively into the swing and instead gotten a baseball bat to the cranium as the felon intended, this could have turned out a lot worse.

 

[Ed Ames]

Happens to concealed carriers too.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...un-stolen-armed-robbery-concealed-carry-fail/

 

[Mainsail]

Nor do I see a basis for any inference that open carry "frightens" the poster.

As mentioned earlier; there are reasons why some people don't like open carry, and then there are the reason they say they don't like open carry. When one has to reach soooooo far out to grasp a straw like that, it has been my experience they are not comfortable revealing their true objection to it.

If someone has a reasonable argument against OC I would enjoy the discussion- we all like to learn! Silly little one-off events and outlier fantasies of what might happen if the moon and planets all align just right is nothing more than a diversion.

We all recognize that pretty much anything could happen, but is it so possible that one needs to give it prominence in their safety planning over other far more likely threats? If one believes there is serious danger in outlier events, how come they don't wear a hardhat all day? Gravity makes no exceptions, and stuff falls all the time, so it would make as much sense.

EDIT to add: The use of outlier events and 'could happen' scenarios is exactly the tactic the gun banners use when they argue to take guns from all of us law abiding citizens. Every time a bill is introduced to relax some ineffectual gun law, the grabbers come crying that blood will run in the streets, disagreements will be gunfights, and guns will be laying in the gutters for children to pick up. We don't prepare first for what 'could' happen, we are better prepared is we consider first what 'would' happen.

 

[Mainsail]

I believe open carry should be legal, but being targeted for the weapon is indeed a valid concern.

I wouldn't disagree- it certainly is a valid concern. I can tell you that when I'm carrying open my SA is in top form.

 

[buck460XVR]

there's a difference between being anti-open carry, and choosing to maintain the tactical advantage by not revealing the location and presence of one's personal firearm, this is a debate about the merits or lackthereof of open carry vs concealed carry.

Maybe........ except for these two posts that are definitely anti OC and condescending to fellow gun owners that do OC.

So one only OCs in an area where it safe? So that implies it is just for show to the soccer moms?

Want to look cool open carrying, do it in your house.

Sorry, but neither of the above two posts can ever be considered "The High Road". They are nuttin' but a flagrant attack against other law abiding, responsible gun owners, only because the posters themselves have a difference of opinion. They are not debating, but being condescending and derogatory. This is the route that some in a debate take because they have no legitimate evidence to support their claims. Name calling and belittling. Suggesting the only legitimate reason to open carry is to show off with the only intent to impress or intimidate others. Not all OCers are carrying fancy Bar-B-Que rigs to a picnic in Texas or somehow trying to "show off" their firearms. While there may be a small percentage of folks that are OCing for that reason, again, there are probably just as many, if not more folks CWCing for the "cool factor".

OCing takes more awareness and more consideration than CWCing. No one here will debate that. It also is not appropriate, both socially and tactically in certain scenarios. But to many folks, the advantages of OCing in other scenarios outweighs any of the disadvantages stated here. I'm betting most folks so vehemently against OCing here, have never carried openly other than in the woods, if even that. But they know all the reasons of why other folks shouldn't. I wonder how they ever find hats big enough?

 

[Ed Ames]

If someone has a reasonable argument against OC I would enjoy the discussion- we all like to learn!

In my own case, my strongest reason for not open carrying in public is the same reason I don't OC in my front yard (which would be legal today). I don't want my gun practices to be a subject for neighborhood gossip.

Gossip doesn't harm me directly but it can raise the odds my home will be burglarized. This isn't the "I'll be targeted by people robbing a store I'm in" concern, nor the "people will attack and disarm me" concern, but the same concern that causes me to be "discreet" when loading up to go to the range, and not put my travel plans on Facebook.

 

[wojownik]

I'm not sure about making a a reasonable argument about OC overall, but I will try to make an argument for responsible OC, if one so chooses to carry that way. Just some observations after "people watching" over the weekend:

• Please don't fondle your holstered firearm while OC'ing. At best its unseemly. At worst, it may be construed as brandishing.
• Please be aware of your overall appearance while OC'ing. What kind of "statement" are you making? Are you inadvertantly making a statement in your attire, even if you didn't mean to?
• Please take into consideration social situations. Perhaps not every occasion is suitable for OC. Such as windsurfing while wearing a speedo - though I'm sure there are those who would challenge me even on that.

I do not object to OC per se, but I prefer concealed - I don't need to advertise. Just my preference. YMMV.