Open letter to the THR community...

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It seems to me, having only seen and read THIS thread, that the point about how this is an L&P forum that is supposed to be limited to GUN related L&P issues is somehow being missed. I see nothing, or very little, in the way of gun related posts in this thread. I imagine there was very little gun related material in the threads being discussed here. That is conjecture on my part.

The mods around here do a pretty damn good job for the pay they get. I have always done my best to work with them and it has always been a pleasant and positive experience and I've "talked" to a few of em. :p

Thanks mods.

280
 
It seems to me, having only seen and read THIS thread, that the point about how this is an L&P forum that is supposed to be limited to GUN related L&P issues is somehow being missed.
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I direct your attention to the description of this forum, off of the main page.

Get informed on issues affecting the right to keep and bear arms and other civil rights. Coordinate activism, debate with allies and opponents. Discuss laws concerning firearm ownership, concealed carry and self-defense.
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Some of the threads have had a tenuous connection to civil rights, some have had that as their firm foundation.

I'd agree that some of the threads have been out there, but this is NOT a gun related only L&P forum as currently defined.

There are PLENTY of possible implications on civil rights, both for citizens and non-citizens of the US in this sitution to warrant an appropriate discussion.
 
As a Legal Immigrant

:mad: I detest the illegals because of what i had to go through.

Enough is enough. The government is SUPPOSED to enforce laws, and NOT selectively at that.

Arrest them all and throw them out. I am sure EVERY LEGAL immigrant would have NO problem with that.
 
Sungun09, you bring up an interesting point.

Would you mind explaining a bit about what exactly you had to do to get status as a LEGAL immigrant?

If we do as you and others suggest (myself included), just toss all the illegals out, what exactly does it take for those that truly want to be here to return?

There must be a system in place already, why don't more people follow the system? Maybe if I understood the current system it would be more clear, but I don't really know what it entails.

Thanks
 
Once again not trying to kiss moderator butt here but I find this the best
firearms board in regards to discussion of this type however it must be
Phrased in a civil manner via common sense as we are not sitting in a bar,
etc.
"When you have a good thing don't kick it in the face." A quote from my
grandpa.
 
I think THR is a great forum with great moderators, but there does seem to at least some bias in favor of illegal immigration on their part.
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That's hysterical.

There are dozens of moderators on THR. We're not a single person. We are a group of people with a shared vision to build a worthwhile place to visit online.

We certainly don't all agree on this issue, not even sort of. Nor on many others.

These (and other) thread closures really-and-truly are not happening because of the political opinion of any one moderator or group of moderators. Threads don't get closed on THR simply because a moderator doesn't like the opinions expressed.

Threads get closed because:

* they are off-topic for the board, or because
* they are duplicates of threads already in progress, or because
* too many posters have thrown too many insults and the alternative is to ban people which we'd rather not do unless we have to.

I closed a few L&P threads the other day, because several of the specific L&P moderators were out of town or offline. Most of the threads I closed were about illegal immigration. At the time I closed that handful of threads, there were literally eleven open threads discussing the topic -- an annoying lot of clutter for someone who might come on THR to discuss something other than this. For those who are keeping score, those closures would fall under the category of "duplicates of threads already in progress."

My personal political opinion about illegal immigration can pretty well be summed up by what Herself posted here. But my personal political opinion doesn't figure in my reasons for shutting down threads (rather the opposite, in fact: I literally hate shutting down threads in which I have participated even slightly, because dealing with accusations like the above is so danged annoying).

I closed threads because my opinion as a moderator is that there were too many threads open on the topic. I also closed them because rudely trying to shout each other down makes L&P a very unpleasant place to visit. Such behavior is not worthy of what we're trying to do here on THR (see Bartholomew Roberts' post).

Another note, sadly: egging each other on to more rudeness against people who disagree with your political opinions is a darn good way to get yourself and those who join in with you banned from posting here. If that happens, it won't be because I or any other moderator disagrees with your political opinion. It would be because you made yourself too obnoxious to tolerate in Oleg's living room.

pax
 
let's not get stuck on stultified

Ad hominem attacks and chest-beating in any thread are certainly not desirable. They waste time, energy, bandwidth. That said, I also happen to believe that there are several provocateurs on this forum who have divined the easy road to getting threads shut down. Going whining to the schoolmaster was invidious when we were kids; it's invidious now. Personal insults are one thing; not wanting to hear someone else's position, however unpleasant you might find it, is quite another.

Now, are we to avoid the raw and honest in dealing with inflammatory subjects? Or are we just to avoid any topic of real legal and political sizzle? Illegal immigration, like the "Islamic Problem," is a topic bound to produce heat. And it SHOULD. These are the most serious issues of our day; they do, most certainly, impinge directly on the present and future issue of RKBA because RKBA is bound up with the laws of this nation and its culture. If we are afraid of the real, afraid of passion, then The High Road will become not morally elevated but a place of rarefied air, a polite tea-room where old ladies of both genders happen to pack .45s (or is it 9mm?--but that's another topic, sorry).

There were threads shut down because they became back alley pissing contests, that's true. But there were others that were deemed "off-topic" only because they exposed a view that some here seem to find politically incorrect. That at least is my impression, and I have been in the center of all of them. Threads that consist of a link--as was earlier pointed out--to photos of a march, revealing its "dark side," are a perfect example of this.

If we want to take the heart out of THR, that's fine, it's permissible, but it's clear that threads that have hundreds of posters and thousands of viewers are touching a chord that, in my opinion, shouldn't be ignored just because a few misbehave. We have the option to ignore those posters or to ignore the entire thread altogether. I believe that THR should be a brave and daring community that is not afraid to give the podium even to loud voices. Why should THR not reflect what is going on "outside?" You think this issue is going to be resolved by telling America to hush? I don't. We here are at least thinking seriously about the matter, and some of us will effect its outcome in the outer world. Let's be polite, but let's be bold too. We only go around once (so far as I know); let's make the most of it.
 
These (and other) thread closures really-and-truly are not happening because of the political opinion of any one moderator or group of moderators. Threads don't get closed on THR simply because a moderator doesn't like the opinions expressed.
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If you say so.

Several moderators have said they have closed illegal immigration threads because there are too many of them. But this rule is not consistently applied to other topics, in my opinion. For example "45 acp versus 9mm" has been done to death, but I haven't seen many threads closed just because there have been a lot of them. There have been hundreds of threads on the War on Terror, but they haven't been closed for that reason either. As long as the threads say civil, why not let people talk about what they want to talk about?

I realize this forum is private property, and am happy to respect the desires of the owners. If illegal immigration threads are not wanted, then add them to the banned list of topics like abortion and religion, and I am sure most people would abide by the rules.

I think there have been so many threads posted here about illegal immigration because there is a lot of concern over the issue. This matter will eventually have to be dealt with by the government, and I believe their solution will likely effect the sovereignty of our nation, and likely will affect all our civil rights as well. It is a matter worthy of discussion.

I apologize if I insulted any of the moderators by my use of the word "bias", but it seems to me, in my opinion, that the policy of thread closings on illegal immigration is different than it is on other topics. I chose the word "bias" based on what seemed to be inconsistent rules regarding thread closings on the illegal immigration topic. I am sure you guys disagree, and will point that out. I don't think I am the only person that feels that way, I just hope I don't get banned for saying this.
 
Several moderators have said they have closed illegal immigration threads because there are too many of them. But this rule is not consistently applied to other topics, in my opinion. For example "45 acp versus 9mm" has been done to death, but I haven't seen many threads closed just because there have been a lot of them.
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Can you point out an example of where there were 10 different "9mm v. 45ACP" threads going on in the same forum all on the same day and all on the first page?

I believe there is a significant difference between an oft-repeated topic that most of the old-timers are familiar with resurfacing regularly and the current immigration discussion.

If anything, I think the rule is pretty consistently applied. I can point you to several gun related examples of merged threads or "Duplicate. Closed." threads regarding multiple topics within the last week.

If you see some inconsistencies, please point them out. You point out War on Terror threads; but as a mod I remember seeing quite a few of those closed or merged as well.

As long as the threads say civil, why not let people talk about what they want to talk about?
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Well, it would be one thing if any of the existing threads showed signs of remaining civil; but in most of the cases here they weren't remaining civil. People were being downright nasty to each other and at the same time starting new threads that promised more of the same discussion at a record rate.
 
No, I really am not going to sort through old threads to cite examples. I am not sure how I could even search for that if I wanted to. The next time I see it happen, I will let you know, if I remember though. As I said, it was my opinion, and I have not done a statistical analysis. Its just my perception based on reading stuff here at THR, but this thread would exists because some people feel that way.

But I would point out that while duplicate threads on other topics are usually merged, the illegal alien topics were simply closed. Why not just merge the illegal alien threads instead of close them?

Also, while all those threads dealt generally with illegal immigration, most of them dealt with some particular aspect of illegal immigration. Different points were being discussed under the same general topic of illegal immigration. Closing them because they were all the same topic is no more appropriate than closing, say, two 1911 threads that deal with different aspects of the 1911.

As I have said, I didn't mean to offend moderators, and my opinions are subjective perception. Discredit and/or marginalize as necessary. If y'all don't want illegal immigration discussed, just say so and ban it, and I will comply.
 
First, the opening post would be a lot more coherent if the author used paragraphs. I got lost halfway through it.

Second, anyone claiming illegal immigration is not destructive to our country either isn't paying attention or has another agenda.

Third, everyone here keeps coming up with ideas about how to stop illegal immigration. Lack of ideas is not the problem. The problem is our (leaders) failure to acknowledge a problem and lack the will to do anything about it.

Fourth, we're getting exactly the country and the government we deserve because we lack the will the change it. We can cry on internet forums until hell freezes over and it won't change a thing. Fact is, we've already lost the culture war and now we're just along for the ride. A country's culture (and language) drive the political forces which govern its citizens.
 
But I would point out that while duplicate threads on other topics are usually merged, the illegal alien topics were simply closed. Why not just merge the illegal alien threads instead of close them?
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Actually, that was suggested by one of the mods after several threads had already been closed and personally I think it would have been a great idea. After all, if all of them were related to civil liberties then they should have merged quite easily right?

On the other hand, we get paid to moderate what you get paid to read. Should it be our burden to go through existing threads and find where that new thread should have probably been posted and then take the time to merge the threads when the original poster couldn't be bothered to make that effort? That is really a courtesy from my perspective and as much as I might like to extend it; it becomes difficult to do when 10 different people all need that same thing.

Also, while all those threads dealt generally with illegal immigration, most of them dealt with some particular aspect of illegal immigration. Different points were being discussed under the same general topic of illegal immigration. Closing them because they were all the same topic is no more appropriate than closing, say, two 1911 threads that deal with different aspects of the 1911.
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The only aspect of illegal immigration that belongs here is how it relates to civil liberties. I can buy that you might need more than one thread to explore that topic; but between five and ten on a single day?

The difference between 20 threads discussing 20 different aspects of a 1911 is that this is primarily a firearms forum, with the Legal & Political focusing on RKBA "and other civil liberties". The 1911 is why this forum exists. Immigration reform is not.

As I have said, I didn't mean to offend moderators, and my opinions are subjective perception. Discredit and/or marginalize as necessary.
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I'm not offended and I am not trying to discredit or marginalize someone. It seems obvious to me that there is no favoritism here and that this is a pretty reasonable request. Obviously, not all the members see it the same way so I am just trying to listen and see why we are seeing things so differently here.
 
I am against illegal immigration for three reasons:

#1: It drives wages down. Americans will do any job on the planet. But we would like to eat, feed our families, have a decent life, etc.

#2: The border is a flowing river. A river that anyone including terrorists could make it through.

#3: TANSTAAFL: Look at Cali right now. How much do social services cost? Homes? etc. Look at taxes and cost of living. Illegals who go to American Hospitals, illegallly use welfare, etc. endanger American citizens.

Unfortunately, (and it was posted earlier), the Republicans don't want to deal with this because they love Americans not getting decent wages. They have no concern for American worker's lives. And they are more than willing to risk national sovreingnty for a buck. As they prove every day longer we are in Iraq

The Democrats are arguably worse here. The illegals could become a wonderfull voting bloc for the Democratic Party, allowing legislation to get passed which wouldn't stand a snowball's chance without illegal (now magically legal) votes.

I'm all for legal immigration. I'm all for people with skills we can use living here, and helping to enrich America. But I am patently against illegal immigrants driving down wages, using American social, legal, medical rescources without paying for them, and I am also definitely against the more extreme amongst their # attempting a "reconquista."

This isn't like immigration from Europe (they were trying to become American, leaving bad circumstances and seeking not to be European anymore, but be American). Blacks who were forced here, and are too far removed from Africa to ever go back as more than a visit, and who's decendents have assimilated into society.

Mexico lies across our border, Mexicans are coming here to do cheap labor at the behest of American business interests. Many don't even stay. But they take a job from an American every time. (and many do stay)

Once here, they don't learn our language, and at border towns, often you can go through 3-4 generations of Mexicans who happen to live in America. Unfortunately, that situation rises a little further every year.

Kodiaz said before, the people they will elect will be Socialists masquerading as Democrats. Where will our gun rights be then?

Sealing our border and forcing the Mexican government to deal with the problems which arise from the social inequalities it has created is the only answer.
 
As you can tell by the no. of my posts I try to not say to much.I am 65 years old I have lived 60 of those years among these socalled illegal aliens aka criminals . I for one am tired of rolling over and taking it up the south end for these poor-mistreted-lazy-goodfornoting-dregs of the world.if this makes me racist then racist I am:cuss:
 
Then, we have a duty to conduct our dialogue, discourse and debate this and all topics in a logical, sensible and knowdlege based manner.
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Agreed, but that word sensible kinda makes me worried. You know like "Sensible gun control". Sensible is one of those words that can mean many things.

decisions will have to be made, some even not to your liking
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Just a little puzzled here how do you know my liking or not and I think that perhaps considering how many people we have on THR that there is a very wide range of likes and dislikes.

"whatever results will be a matter of communication, followed by compromise,"

Ah yes compromise, If someone comes up to me and tells me I must give him the money in my wallet should I discuss it with him and reach a compromise position with him taking only half of my money ? To me not all things in life are a compromise. Perhaps I am wrong.

"Life is 10% what you know and 90% how you react to it"

I am afraid I ahve never heard this saying before nor do I see its veracity. Do you choose your physcian by how they react instead of what they know?:confused:

"The fact is illegal immigrants come to the U.S. because it is the land of economic opportunity, period"

I'm sorry but I must ask how you came to that point of view ? Last I heard
there were over 10,000,000 Illegal Aliens in the US. Do you have contact with all of them to know why they came here? Many people have come to the US for Political Aslyum. Making statements that cannot be proved correct and can be proven incorrect is not "logical, sensible and knowledge based" at least from my point of view.

"Not, and i repeat NOT!!! because the U.S.A. is some kind of moral, social, cultural or political Utopia."

And this relates to the debate exactly how ?:confused: Oh, and who claimed the US is any kind of utopia ?


"i tried to be clear and concise"

I am sorry but in my humble opinoin you have failed. NOT due to spelling or grammatical mistake. My writing skills are not good either. You have failed due to logical errors, assumptions that are not proven and possibly ( I do not presume to know you ) being too close and having a biased viewpoint.

I would like to have a logical, sensible and knowledgeble thread on immigration here on THR.

NukemJim
 
#1: It drives wages down. Americans will do any job on the planet. But we would like to eat, feed our families, have a decent life, etc.
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It doesn't drive wages down. Supply and demand drives wages.

It isn't your job, it's a job.

The moment someone agrees to do a $30 an hour job for $20 an hour, it is no longer a $30 an hour job. It doesn't matter who the people are, it doesn't matter where they come from.

The balance an employer juggles is pure production- it can be a much better deal to pay the $30 an hour. It comes down to square feet per dollar of wage/benefit.

The only way you feed your family is to be the best deal going. The only way you keep your wage high is to keep your production per hour higher than the competition.

I fired an American foreman when I caught him sleeping in his car, and replaced him with a Mexican. The Mexican produces more per hour than the American, and he doesn't snore while he's doing it.

There is no entitlement- you're not entitled to a high wage just because you're an American.

You're only entitled to a good living if you EARN it.

What we need now is someone to rant about socialism and illegal immigrants in the same post...

:cool:
 
MmmmmmmKAY! Lesson one; Trollish behavior is just that - with some effort, we can ignore certain folks who have a black belt in elicting responses that result in a thread being shut down.
*You can do it Biker, you can do it*
Biker;)
 
What we need now is someone to rant about socialism and illegal immigrants in the same post...
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I'll do that. Socialism is the only reason the illegals are such a problem. If we would stop the handouts (to ours and to theirs), it would no longer matter. Our current welfare dependents would be competing with the illegals for the unskilled jobs, which would keep prices low, and our taxes even lower.

Prices would go up slightly, because the low-wage earners would no longer be subsidized by the government, but we'd all have more money available to pay the higher prices, so it'd be a wash.

See how simple it can be, if we just LET THE FREE MARKET WORK?
 
The moment someone agrees to do a $30 an hour job for $20 an hour, it is no longer a $30 an hour job. It doesn't matter who the people are, it doesn't matter where they come from.
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Jammer, that is not really an accurate statement. Back 50+ years ago, there were attempts by prison reformers to put prisoners to work doing various jobs that previously had been done by free men trying to make a living. The people running the prison work programs undercut the free workers because they had a supply of free labor.

The same situation basically is what we have with the illegals. They unfairly compete with law-abiding citizens by not paying taxes, contributing to social security etc. They are breaking the law by not doing these things.

If US citizens did the same thing, they would be put in jail for tax evasion.

U. S. citizens have to be paid more to end up with the same amount of money after taxes. The playin field is not level.

I like to think of America as the life-boat of the world. Sooner or later, that life-boat is going to get full. Add people after that, and we risk capsizing. We can deal with that problem now, before that happens, or we can all go down later.

I paid about 40 percent of my salary last year in taxes of one kind or another. That means an illegal alien could come over and offer to do my job for 60 percent of what I charge. There is no way to compete because the rules are different.
 
The same situation basically is what we have with the illegals. They unfairly compete with law-abiding citizens by not paying taxes, contributing to social security etc. They are breaking the law by not doing these things.
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Here's your error.

This statement is only true part of the time. I have no idea how big that part is, and neither does anyone else. It is, therefore, a siren song for the disenfranchised, the frightened, and the weak. It is irresistible. It is unknowable, unprovable, and all the better for those purposes because of that.

Many immigrants are union members, and pay full taxes, whether or not they ever take advantage of the benefits.

Free money.

The politicians know this.

I paid about 40 percent of my salary last year in taxes of one kind or another. That means an illegal alien could come over and offer to do my job for 60 percent of what I charge. There is no way to compete because the rules are different.
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However, an immigrant who pays the same taxes, and simply takes home less money is simply taking home less money. He or she wins that competition, assuming that production is close. There again, if your production is higher, you win, and it doesn't matter how much more you cost, if the production is there. And in that case, our nation comes out WAY ahead- they get the taxes, without the accountability, and without the cost that the illegal immigrant never takes advantage of.

The only job security is production.

I believe that all of you against immigration should report immediately to the Arizona, Texas and California borders, to patrol those borders, build walls, and shout at the dessert with bullhorns.

Those of you who see the future, the debate is in Washington, D.C.

We get stronger every time an immigrant crosses the border. :cool:
 
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