Opinion on Tazers

[yesit'sloaded]

It seems that every week there is a story about police tazering someone. Sometimes people die. Do you think that these weapons are being marketed falsely as non lethal, or that it is mainly poor judgment on the part of officers that see it as a magic compliance device. I was under the impression that they were only to be used when a there was no other option between physical fighting and shooting the offender. Here is the latest incident.

(CNN) -- A video showing the last moments of a Polish immigrant, who died after Canadian police shot him with a stun gun at Vancouver International Airport, has been made public.


This image from video shows an agitated Robert Dziekanski, left, before police used a stun gun on him.

Robert Dziekanski, 40, was traveling to join his mother, who lives in British Columbia, when he ended up spending about 10 hours in the airport's arrivals area, The Canadian Press said.

The video shows Dziekanski, who had never flown before, becoming agitated. It then shows Mounties purportedly shocking Robert Dziekanski with a Taser device after confronting him. Dziekanski did not speak English.

The recording was captured by bystander Paul Pritchard on October 14 and was in police hands until he threatened legal action and it was returned to him last week, The Canadian Press reported. Video Watch as police stun man with Taser »

"Probably the most disturbing part is one of the officers uses his leg and his knee to pin his neck and his head to the ground," Pritchard told CBC News.

The dead man's mother, Zofia Cisowski, told CBC News that Tasers should not be used by police.
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"They should do something because that is a killer, a people killer."

The incident is being investigated by police, Canada's national police complaints commission and by the coroner, CBC News reported.

://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/15/taser.death/index.html#cnnSTCText

 

[Lone_Gunman]

I saw the video. CNN reported this guy was hit by up to four Taser darts. All this nonsense about pinning the guy to the ground is wrong. It looked like any other police pile up after a suspect goes down.

Maybe the problem was he was hit with multiple Tasers at once?

 

[secamp32]

I was under the impression that they were only to be used when a there was no other option between physical fighting and shooting the offender

In most places use of a taser is well below the threshold for deadly physical force. The use of a taser is authorized in an arrest when verbal commands are not obeyed. You don't have to use physical force first before using a taser. In some places it is below the use of OC spray.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Ok, I didn't know that. I was thinking more along the lines of guy with a knife. You don't want to get physical and yet you really don't want to shoot him unless he runs at you so you taze him. So in places a tazer is below oc in force escalation? I wonder why.

 

[Crunker1337]

To legally use a tazer in the US, the person must be threatening to you. He might be trying to fight you, he might be about to throw a chair at you, then you can taze him. If you're a cop, then you can use a tazer to subdue a suspect who is physically resisting arrest or lawful orders (such as stop running).

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

To legally use a tazer in the US, the person must be threatening to you.

Cite please? I'm particularly interested in the applicable federal law.

 

[esq_stu]

They need to teach foreigners the phrase "don't taze me 'bro." It's only four one-syllable words. Should be easy in any language.

 

[Flyboy]

The [taser] is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user."
--Col. Cooper

 

[yesit'sloaded]

I was really wondering if these things are being marketed to LEOs as nonlethal. I would love to have a LEO chime in with something like " they told us to use them whenever because the don't hurt people" or "they told us to only use them when ____"

 

[Jorg Nysgerrig]

I was really wondering if these things are being marketed to LEOs as nonlethal. I would love to have a LEO chime in with something like " they told us to use them whenever because the don't hurt people" or "they told us to only use them when ____"

You can see all their marketing stuff on their website. As far as the "when to use them" question, they deftly avoid answering that: It is properly the responsibility of each agency to set their own policy based upon their community standards and the totality of the circumstances for any use-of-force, including the deployment of TASER ECDs. Law enforcement officers on scene are best able, highly trained, and equipped to determine the proper use of force required based on the totality of circumstances in response to any given situation. Source.

If you look at their marketing brochure, they use a mix of "non-lethal" and "less-lethal".

 

[K3]

To legally use a tazer in the US, the person must be threatening to you. He might be trying to fight you, he might be about to throw a chair at you, then you can taze him. If you're a cop, then you can use a tazer to subdue a suspect who is physically resisting arrest or lawful orders (such as stop running).

It seems as though they are overused as compliance devices. When you see enough videos of people laying on the ground getting tasered, it makes you wonder. It almost makes me think a laziness is starting to creep into law enforcement.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

I was really wondering if these things are being marketed to LEOs as nonlethal.

We were trained with them as a "less than lethal" option. Less than lethal meant in at least my mind that it wouldn't cause instant and predictable death like our sidearm would.

We were trained to use them when we felt force was necessary to make an arrest, but didn't think it was necessary to start popping caps.

Any use of force can be lethal. OC has caused death. Heck, fat guys have died just from being in handcuffs. Long story short, don't make the police use force on you, it doesn't end well very often.

 

[Lone_Gunman]

There will be one heck of a class action lawsuit one day. Lawyers are already salivating.

 

[Invalid]

It seems as though they are overused as compliance devices. When you see enough videos of people laying on the ground getting tasered, it makes you wonder. It almost makes me think a laziness is starting to creep into law enforcement.

Agreed. To cite a ridiculous example, the 'bro tazing' incident is a good illustration of the acceptable level of force allowed to the law. Was he causing harm? No. Was he attacking innocent people? No. Was he being obnoxious? Sure. Was he tazed because it was that much easier for a group of trained officers to zap him silly rather than handcuff a college student? Yep.

Taz(s?)ers are weapons, pure and simple. Someone attacks you with intent to harm, defend yourself. A college student tries to make a YouTube video and gets rowdy, then arrest him. Seems to me like the cops were just being lazy, highly unprofessional and overly violent. Electrocuting people for breaking the law- that's police state material right there.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Another disturbing trend is that I saw on the news is that "tazer parties" are becoming popular among women as a way to be armed. While I want women to be able to protect themselves, I think it is a false security. Can a tazer penetrate heavy clothing or stop everyone one hundred percent of the time?

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Taz(s?)ers are weapons, pure and simple. Someone attacks you with intent to harm, defend yourself. A college student tries to make a YouTube video and gets rowdy, then arrest him. Seems to me like the cops were just being lazy, highly unprofessional and overly violent. Electrocuting people for breaking the law- that's police state material right there.

There is one thing that some people seem to always overlook when they make this argument: When police officers go to physically arrest any obviously non-complaint person, someone is going to get hurt. The suspect, or the arresting officers. Just because there isn't an electrical zapping sound, doesn't mean there isn't a lot of force involved. A close quarters physical altercation is often times the worst thing an officer can become involved in. I've never witnessed an across the room gun snatching ala Vader in Empire Strikes Back. Subduing at range saves lives, on both sides of the equation.

 

[Soybomb]

Any use of force can be lethal. OC has caused death. Heck, fat guys have died just from being in handcuffs.

.
Sounds like it was put pretty well to me. A taser isn't a phaser from star trek, sometimes they do cause real physical harm to people.

Agreed. To cite a ridiculous example, the 'bro tazing' incident is a good illustration of the acceptable level of force allowed to the law. Was he causing harm? No. Was he attacking innocent people? No. Was he being obnoxious? Sure. Was he tazed because it was that much easier for a group of trained officers to zap him silly rather than handcuff a college student? Yep.

Thats something I'd like to see some of the leo's talk about. What are they taught with regards to tazing someone that is just flat out un cooperative but not a real threat (wrestling with them aside) like he seemed to be? He very well could have gotten hurt if they had to wrestle him to the ground.

 

[TexasRifleman]

It seems that every week there is a story about police tazering someone. Sometimes people die. Do you think that these weapons are being marketed falsely as non lethal, or that it is mainly poor judgment on the part of officers

it seems every week there is a story about someone wrecking their car. Sometimes people die. Do you think that these vehicles are being markted falsely as non lethal?

And, by the way, Tazer is marketing the product as "less lethal" not "non lethal"

Taken straight from their website:

TASER devices protect life by providing powerful, effective self-defense capabilities that minimize the risk of serious injury.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Also from their website:

Tazers
Tazers aka TASER® Weapons fire a 50,000 volt electronic
non-lethal defensive stungun force from
several feet away dropping attackers with
100% effectiveness and laser sight accuracy.

and

Tazer Weapons aka TASER® Weapons fire 50,000 Volts up to 15 feet, with more stopping power than a .357 Magnum. Absolutely the best non-lethal protection for your home, business and auto. M18 Tazers provide the ultimate EMD TASER® Weapon technology for law enforcement and civilian personal protection.

That seems a little misleading to me.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

Don't tase me Bro!

Col Cooper is right, it is a weapon but so is a .22 pistol it works but on a person high on drugs is wont work. (Sorry I could not resist quoting that John Kerry guy).

 

[sacp81170a]

What are they taught with regards to tazing someone that is just flat out un cooperative but not a real threat (wrestling with them aside) like he seemed to be? He very well could have gotten hurt if they had to wrestle him to the ground.

It's called the continuum of force and may vary from department to department. In relative order(can be different depending on departmental policy): verbal commands, soft hands, restraint techniques(cuffs, joint locks), chemical (OC), directed energy (Taser), hard hands, impact weapons, firearms.


Note that these levels of force don't necessarily have to be applied in order, i.e., you can jump straight to a higher level without going to any of the intermediate levels. You still may not use more force than is necessary to gain compliance but you may use any force level to effect an arrest if it is reasonable and justifiable. IOW, don't resist.

Unfortunately, this guy couldn't speak English, so he couldn't comply. Seems to me like slowing down a little and taking a less aggressive attitude would have resulted in a better outcome. I'm still waiting for the autopsy to see if the Taser caused the death or if this is a case of Sudden Death Incident to Restraint like we've seen in the past. In those kinds of cases, no matter how they got him into the cuffs, he could die on them when he was restrained short of having an ICU and a crash cart handy.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

I've been tased for work... full ride, went to the ground... Couldn't do much other than mutter "muther-fooker" on the way to the floor.... yet, 10-15 seconds later I was fine...

We were taught that a taser is not appropriate for a direct man on man with knife scenerio.... why? if a dart misses, no effect.... unless you go for the drive stun follow up after... which means person to person contact... no thanks, I'll use my gun if he has a knife....

If you go back to the dumbass college student and look at all the videos, you'll see he was actively resisting.... he got what he had coming... he yanked away from a non-pain complaince escort, flailing his arms.... How many times does a LEO have to ay "please" and use kid gloves.... The college student looked like an a$$h0le with some sort of psych disorders...should they have batoned him? sprayed him with a room full of others? No. You wanna wrestle with a non-compliant subject while you have a pistol on your hip? Not me...

Now there is the excited delirium thing.... People do die from that... Over 100K LEO's have been tased,not one have died...

What else...Rodney King was "tased"with the old varity of taser, which only worked like 40 percent of the time, as opposed to 98 percent on the new tech... Me personally, I'd rather be tased 100 times before being sprayed once with OC... Or tear gas, or hit with a baton... I could fight back with being sprayed and gassed, and probably batoned, but the taser showed me that it will work...

dumb quote of the thread; "Seems to me like the cops were just being lazy, highly unprofessional and overly violent. Electrocuting people for breaking the law- that's police state material right there" -(Invalid)

Bull$h1t... electrocuting kills you, ala the electric chair.... The cops in the college incidnet gave that jerk plenty of opportunities to comply...If somebody yanked away from me the way he did, he,or she would take a short hard trip to the floor.... Didn't look lazy, didn't act unproffessional to me, and overly violent? nope

 

[snow92686]

I'm a student at the University of Florida so this incident strikes a nerve with me. I cannot speculate on whether this tazing was justified but I can tell you that after the incident here I have a new outlook on tazers. They are a great tool but give an ******* cop a tazer and look at what happens. I think tazers should be used when there is a threat of violence to the cop, others or the criminal himself, but when you taze a kid that has 4 officers pinning him to the ground and is half way handcuffed I think its wrong. Personally I think cops that are tazer certified should have to go through a lot more training than they already do. Of course the FDLE said that the UF cops were justified... yea sure they were. Bet if the kid had died the UF cops would be facing a grand jury about now.

 

[snow92686]

sorry double post

 

[RKBABob]

yesit'sloaded wrote: Another disturbing trend is that I saw on the news is that "tazer parties" are becoming popular among women as a way to be armed.

Just my .02, I think this is a very good thing. These women are accepting the fact that there are dangerous people out there, and are taking positive steps to ensure their safety, instead of burying their heads in the sand. Any woman who carries a Taser would be way more likely to take a supportive attitude towards those of us who choose to carry firearms for protection. The Taser could also be a stepping stone for these ladies, who may upgrade to more dependable tools, once they've accepted the realities of carrying a defensive weapon.