opinions about Massad Ayoob

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I have been acquainted with the man through his writings since the late 1960s or so when he was the new kid on the block among gunwriters. Charles Askins, Jr., Elmer Keith, Jack O'Connor, Bill Jordan, Skeeter Skelton were some of the mainstays and they usually got the more notable assignments like reviewing the latest 338 Magnum Model 70 on an African safari, or sheep hunting with a Weatherby 257 Magnum. Bill Jordan was the resident pistoleer, quick draw artiste, etc., and with Jeff Cooper and Charles Askins, Jr., Mas could not get any articles about handgunning in.

So he chose a niche that was not being filled; Forensics

Much of his advice to my way of thinking is just good fiction, but he gets articles published. I respect the man for his longevity in the field, but like any of the writers, I take what he writes with a grain of salt. I will say this: he is a far piece ahead of anybody else currently writing about guns, but that does not put him in the Elmer Keith/Jack O'Connor/Charlie Askins category. Those guys are still better and if you can get some of their old articles you will probably agree. YMMV JMTC
 
BigG, it sounds as if we have the same views and our likes in writers seem the same. Of all you mentioned,I think Elmer and Charley were the cream of the crop. They both more or less had to make do for themselves. They were both raised poor and in hard times.
Elmer was quiet a man and didn't seem to back down from anything or anyone.
Charley was a man among men and had adventures all over the world. He even had jump wings from several different countries. He wandered all over Indo-China with just a few natives even tho it was a very dangerous place to be.
He also had a lot of shoot-outs along the border and was very effective in his job.He also had time to win the National Championship while doing it.
He was very much politicaly incorrect( Hell,so am I!!!!!),but that was a time before P.C. was even heard of. It was even before politics tried to rule law enforcement from the sidelines.
Wish we had many more like these two above men
 
Actually, I'm kinda glad we don't have too many like Elmer Keith or Charles Askins :D You have too many men like that and there's bound to be trouble.
 
Yep,sure have read it and just read your review. You hit the nail on the head with it. :D
Years ago, I had several letters from Elmer and boy were they hard to read. They were handwritten,sloppy and a lot of mis-spelled words but I loved them and kept them for years until they were destroyed by fire.
Charley had a lot more education than Elmer and Elmer had someone to redo his writing,never heard of Charley using someone else.
If we had men like these to enforce the laws and the politicians would leave them along,we would all be better off. :cuss:
 
If you read between the lines of Massad Ayoobs work on the aftermath of a shooting, you can see that he is teaching the reader how to speak in legal terms. He tries to show what actually happened and how the incident should be described in legal terms if you don't want to be convicted.
This is useful info for me and for many others. I would have enough truble trying to pay my legal bills without any misunderstandings to correct.
It is far too easy to be misunderstood in the aftermath of a shooting just by expressing your feelings.
 
A very Knowledgeable and talented Individual. Mostly good advice, some to be taken with a grain of salt. Very profane, but necessary when getting his message across. all in all, highly recommend cross referencing his Ideas and statements with other sources.
 
re: MAS

I think that Mas may very well be one of those rare individuals that is everything both his supporters and detractors claim him to be.

I had the opportunity to take LFI-1 (a scholarship of sorts), got my materials, read "In the Gravest Extreme", and withdrew from the course. ITGE told me in a couple hours sitting about all I needed to know without the show. Why spend 4 days? Another worthy candidate was identified which was the best outcome for all I suspect.

Mas' is largely correct with his assessment of the "mood of the courts" being a consideration in this part of the country. If you get involved in a justifiable shoot here, expect legal entanglements...your life will likely never be the same (beyond the tangible realities of the event at time of occurrence). Mas' with all the collateral "stuff" (and I'll paraphrase) still believes that when necessary you should defend your life or your loved ones because they are lives worth defending. He is sometimes accused of "teaching folks to get away with murder".

The "show" can be entertaining for some and reinforces the philosophy documented by ITGE. I'm often in and out of the club house during times when he is teaching classes (I'm a range rat) and the profanity described is correct. He's an equal opportunity offender (including himself and various demographics he happens to be part of).

I've found him to be a very capable shooter and in all respects a gentleman in my interactions with him which are generally brief. He is an engaging personality and I think this thread accurately portrays who he is, a controversial figure with ideas worth investigating but best consumed with a skeptical mind.

For those considering LFI enrollment. Mas' doesn't do all the teaching. Ask before you sign up if the "Mas show" is what you are after in an LFI course. His instructors do a competent job of delivering the material (and much of it for LFI-1 is Mas' on video), but Mas' in person is a unique experience.

Safe shooting,

CZ52'
 
gunwriters.....

Massage-A-Boob is, without a doubt, THE guy you want to review, & testify(hopefully in your favor)in court about a shooting you may be involved in.
And, he will only testify in those cases that he finds every i-dotted, & t-crossed. i've been told by those in the know that he's very good. i do think we need to take up a collection for him to get a new RUG, maybe one with an IWB for a 4" M29:cool:

Keith, was a man who had to go to work at an early age, and didn't get much "book learnin'", but he married a woman that was a school teacher, so i'm sure that was where the polishing came to his articles. if you ever read some of the very first "Handloader" magazines, you can get a sample of his handwriting, as there was the writer's signature, after every article, & the script looks like the hand didn't get much practice in penmanship.
 
I probably would not take a shooting class from Ayoob. I would prefer to train with Awerbuck or Tiger McKee. However, I would jump at the oppurtunity to take his Deadly Force Instructor Course. He is suppose to be the man on legal issues. Legal issues are very important from a police trainer' s viewpoint. I would think that they would be as important or more important from an armed citizen' s viewpoint.
PPCT has a good chapter on legal issues in its defensive tactics program. It has more than most of our guys want to learn. Federal court is not a pleasant experience when you are the one being sued. I have found that most of our local attorney' s do not understand use of force case law. Which is good if he is the one sueing you, however it is not a good feeling if he is the one representing the police department.

Look at what type of skill set you want to learn. Then find out where to get it.
 
I probably would not take a shooting class from Ayoob. I would prefer to train with Awerbuck or Tiger McKee. However, I would jump at the oppurtunity to take his Deadly Force Instructor Course. He is suppose to be the man on legal issues. Legal issues are very important from a police trainer' s viewpoint. I would think that they would be as important or more important from an armed citizen' s viewpoint.
Click to expand...

That's precisely what I did. LFI is a wee bit too focused on safety. In the vigorous movement drills, instructors wearing armor escorted the individual student so that if the student fell, both the student and the gun were smothered in Kevlar. This was very safe, I'm sure, but it slowed things down greatly and took a lot of responsibility off the student. Awerbuck, by contrast, has everyone moving and shooting, trusting us to be big boys and girls. Of course, Awerbuck is the only guy I've ever seen who can be on one side of the line and then on the other safeguarding all in the blink of an eye.

I felt a whole lot safer in the Awerbuck course shooting ARs on the move than in an LFI course shooting pistols.
 
I'll second the motion on Louis Awerbuck's exceptional attention to detail in his classes. He is certainly a true professional and his classes are a great bargain.
I think Mas Ayoob's specialty is somewhat different. Take Awerbuck to learn how to shoot and Ayoob to learn what to say after the shoot.
 
Ayoob

After moving to New Hampshire a couple years back I became aware that Mas was in the area as well.
I hvae seen him several times around Concord, in gun shows and storesm but did not approach him. I really like to sit and talk with him for hours...one on one, with me absorbing everything I can.
You folks can like, love or hate him, as you wish. I have read all of his books...and I have filed them in my "look at it again" library.
I haven't walked up and introduced myself because I just ain't bent that way. Eveery person deserves their privacy and respect and one way to show respect is to not walk up and start aggravating evevry celebrity you see.
Mas, if you read this I would like to talk with you some time. I want to get into one or two of your courses in order to remain proficient with my carry stuff.
Alan Yates
29 Perley Street, Concord, NH
 
Alan,

I haven't walked up and introduced myself because I just ain't bent that way. Eveery person deserves their privacy and respect and one way to show respect is to not walk up and start aggravating evevry celebrity you see.
Click to expand...

There is a difference between politely walking up to someone, introducing yourself, and making a compliment on their work, and "aggravating" them. I am sure that Mr. Ayoob, in most circumstances (unless he is busy and/or pre-occupied) would certainly respond graciously.
 
Fprice

I'm confident that you are right. And I certainly didn't imply that he would snub me.
I am just a bit more reserved than othe people, I try to behave toward them as I would want to be treated.
It would have to be nice to go to the corner store for bread and milk without having to stop and answer a dozen questions.
Still, for my money Massad Ayoob is the go-to guy with questions about guns, gear or gunfighting.
I may never have that chance to sit down over a cup of coffee and learn everything I would like to learn about weapon handlng.
Semper Fidelis
 
Ayoob

I actually didn't think I would upset the gentleman...my comments and concerns were my being intrusive. Just across the Alabama line from the city I worked in was Fort Payne, Alabama. Many nights Randy Owen would come into town with his little league baseball team and go to the batting cages and then to eat supper. If he opened a conversation I'd sit and talk as long as possiblw...but when he had his little guys with him they'd talk baseball, and I keft him alone.
It's just that I recognize that people who are in the public eye a lot need a respite from people.
 
I find it very interesting that so many of those who dislike Ayoob and wish to discredit him, very often seem to focus on his advice against the use of handloads for carry/self defense.

If his theory that a prosecutor or civil attorney could sway a jury against you because of the "more deadly bullet" you loaded is so full of crap, why did Winchester dump their entire supply of Black Talon bullets after that shooting in San Francisco?????? IIRC, it was because the bullet was perceived to be so effective, it was too deadly, and, you know, if one was even shot near you, you were dead meat.

I reload in order to shoot more/more economically. To me, the price of a box of ammunition that renders irrelevant any "more deadlier killin' bullet" claim is extremely cheap insurance. Even if this theory is never proven to be correct, who wants to be the test case for it? With the way an attorney/prosecutor can present something to a jury (and remember it was a JURY that awarded the woman $3M for spilling her own hot coffee in her crotch) it simply makes good sense to me to not give them that opportunity.

As for his recommendation against the use of 147 gr. 9mm for defensive ammo: IIRC, he stated several times that it was because the 147 gr. ammo was developed for SEAL teams, Special Forces, et.al. to be the most ACCURATE load, where they would likely be taking head shots more often than not, and expansion was not one of this load's characteristics, which of course, IS one of the characteristics one would desire in one's carry ammo. When he went on record with this, it was because in the police and civilian shootings he'd analyzed, the round was found to over penetrate, endangering others. If he's changed his stance on this round, I'm not aware of it. I wasn't aware he & Dorothy had divorced, either; that's sad, sorry to hear it.

Sam
 
Handloads

Shoot1sam:
I agree with your posting on M. Ayoob for many reasons. Imprimus: He knows whereofe he speaks. I have been a guset at both tables in courtrooms many times over my life and during my career. After those learning situations I develpoed what I call my reality position. Note, I said "my" position. I don't teach and I don't ever suggest anyone else do the things I do as I do them. I think they work for me.
I own and shoot many differing types of firearms. I shoot enough every year to justify that I know about what I might carry or use; But I also have a "carry gun" and "carry ammo" which I stay with. I shoot my carry gun enough to be able to testify that I am practiced with it...I can be accurate with it...and that it is a safe and unmodified, Except by aftermarket Eagle Secret Service grips. I carry it enough that if I am using it to practice and I feel that something's not "right", I take it to the gunsmith for a checkover. My carry ammo is a factory load which I can justifiably say is reliable and not a magnum or "horse" load that will continue for 5 counties after I have to use it for protection. If I have to. Same reason my home protection shotgun is prepared with low-brass rounds. Far too many times I have seen young police officers carry and use "elephant rounds" and have to sit while their lack of thought in chossing a round or weapon becomes a serious issue in a trial. Often THEIR trial. I heard an elder gun writer once say, "It ain't the size of the dog in the fight....it's the size of the fight in the dog." Same holds true for ammo. Nobody needs to impress anyone by carrying way too much gun or filling it with the wrong ammo.
My opinion. Thanks for bringing the issue to the table.
 
If he's changed his stance on this round, I'm not aware of it.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, he hasn't. One of the arguments against Ayoob is that he contradicts himself. Well, let someone else write for 30 years or so in a changing environment and see if opinions don't change. But this is one area that the argument has some weight, as Ayoob hasn't publicly changed that opinion to account for the vast improvements in the 147 gr loads that has occurred. Right now, agencies using 147 gr Ranger are reporting great success.
 
Mas is exceptionally polite and gracious.

If you wish to strike up a conversation, just hand him a cold bottle of Rolling Rock at a suitable time.
 
"Black Talon" as a name was dropped because of the potential negative publicity. How would you like to be the first 'white' to shoot a 'person of color' (other than white) with a "Black Talon"? The ad people never thought about the press going after the shooter.

And I have been sued in Federal Court for a line of duty death. And won. And not one of the ""issues"" of the sort Mas comes up with came up. (I did not shoot the BG, so guns/ammo were not issues. Other areas were open, but the plaintiff's atty. never brought one of them up in court.) The B.S. issues were in the other sides press releases, but Federal Judges I have appeared before are far too smart for that crap.
 
ary you live about 2 minutes from where my family lives, a little deeper in south concord closer to bow. I too have seen mas around, actually at the rite aid in mckee square right by your house. I didn't bother to talk to him either, though it was tempting.. I prefer people leave me alone for the most part, I assume he does as well out of the classroom.
 
You're missing the point. Ayoob uses "street talk" in his class to acclimatize students to the kind of language that might present itself in a self-defense situation. Ayoob discovered that many people are seriously distracted when forced to confront a foul-mouthed assailant. Women were especially vulnerable to this sort of intimidation. Ralph the armed robber is not going to sashay up to you in a Brooks Brother’s suit, and demand your wallet in the finest king’s English. He’s probably going to yell “Gimme your f—kin’ wallet a—hole!” If you flinch when you hear this language, you might end up on the losing end of the situation.

When I took the class, I didn’t find it objectionable in the slightest (and I’m a nearly ivy league educated professional). So he has a big ego and tells off-color jokes. Who cares. I’m not there to marry the guy. I’m there to learn something new.
 
He cultivated a name as an "expert" as far as I know all he ever did to become an expert has published a few articles and become a "part time" Police Officer.

He goes out of his way with the horror stories , he reports on ridicules law suits against people who use firearms inappropriately ------ of course he gets paid as an expert wittiness ----------


To answer the question what do I think of him .... I disagree with a lot of his assessments

ie: light use

trigger jobs

ammo selection

firearm modifications


edit made to comply with THR forum rules.
 
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