Outrage in Richmond VA

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Leatherneck

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This just in from VCDL. I almost can't believe what I read.

TC

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who
seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their
heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at
the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the
member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show!
The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about
the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was
going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to
buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to
the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun
today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached
by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer
said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a
business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a
lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you
are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the
end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up
empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had
a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing
a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he
didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher
neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens
who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told
Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for
this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with
Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters,
went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on
Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000
this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no
longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a
firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not.
Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's
name, badge number, and department.
 
I saw this on packing.org this morning. This is truly an outrage!! :cuss: :fire:

Is anything being done to document the facts? This seems like something that F-troop would deny later or dismiss as an isolated incident that was done without approval of a supervisor.
 
Ya beat me to posting this. :)
"Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun today? How do you feel about him doing so?"
Why don't they just hand out gun owner addresses and get it over with? Maybe they can put a sign in their front yard when they're gone, "VACANT HOME CONTAINING FIREARMS" :rolleyes:
 
I'll be outraged as soon as I stop laughing...and I was at that show at RIR(the old state fairgrounds.)

This show took place in Henrico County which borders the City of Richmond on the north. Does that name ring a bell? Think about the story of the school system selling 1,000 4-year-old i-BOOKs for $50 each and the resulting stampede of 5,500 people at Richmond International Raceway. They started with about 7 police officers and ended up with about 80 - some in riot gear. Maybe you saw the picture of the crushed stroller on the nightly news.

Same county.

And they pride themselves on their superiority to us poor City dwellers. ;)

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Life
 
Someone needs to get it documented and in print. Then talk radio can tee up on what happened. It sounds bad but I'd like to see other reports.

The reason the story sounds funny to me is because the accusations are inflammatory to say the least. What does the bATFe have to gain by public harassment? The public nature of the charges is what has me scratching my head. Just doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
If this is fact - it was no doubt just an oversight by the BATFE and local law enforcement. I doubt it's true given we have leadership in Washington who obviously support the 2nd Amendment - and they'd never allow something like this to happen.
 
I don't see BATFE getting involved with home visits and questioning neighbors... sounds more like a politically-motivated local police force operation. As for their being at the gun show, yes, they usually monitor such events - although harassing legal purchasers and sellers outside in the parking lot is going a bit far, even for them!!!

I'd like to see some mainstream reports on this, and perhaps some ATFE comments. Hard to judge from just one non-mainstream report.
 
I agree that it doesnt make a lot of sense but I trust the VCDL which is who I got the story from. The only reason that I can think they did this was to intimidate and harass.

I'm glad my neighbors werent informed about my gun owning status. Heck, I dont always tell my wife when I'm buying something - not being sneaky but hey, I've got my own money.

If it did happen, I am outraged - that is probably the best word, outraged.

Is that even legal?

JohnBT - That Henrico ibook incident is just plain embarassing. Holy cow.

take care - Joe
 
I guess I'm just slow--I don't see any humor at all in this, if Phil's alert is accurate. It is plausible; given past Richmond City and Henrico County unfriendliness toward gun rights in general, and previous incidents that make one go :cuss: I can see where the liberal local governments would see this as a logical extension of Project Exile. It just makes me fear what ATFE might try next if they're not brought up short.

TC
 
I'm confused, was this BATFE or local cops? Or both? They mention BATFE, police, and the local mayor (who should have no control over BATFE), so I'm guessing both, but it seemed a little unclear. just curious.
 
Yeah, not funny. Scary and maddening.

Project Exile delivers mandatory sentances for ileagle guns. How could this be an extension of that?

Seriously, does anyone know if what they were doing is legal? It seems to me that going to your homes or to your neighbors is a missuse of the background check form. Someone should sue.


edited to add: The ibook thing that JohnBT mentioned, now that's pretty funny. OT but.. Good 'ol Henrico is making all the right descisions.
 
If this becomes common, it looks like there's an opportunity here for an enterprising sort to make some money.

Start by making sure that people at the homes of gun purchasers are armed . . . with cameras!! If local LEOs or BATmen come to "survey" the spouse or family of a gun purchaser, have them take some clear pictures of the LEOs.

Have people going around the show snap pictures of the BATmen during their on-site harassing activities.

Next show, our entrepreneur can begin selling "playing cards" (much like the US did in Iraq) with pictures of "Local and federal LEOs who harass honest citizens." Include things like names, badge numbers, and any other pertinent information you can dredge up on these public servants. :evil:
 
Great. Ask my neighbors. Why the freak do they think I buy guns to begin with? Why not just give them my key and alarm code?

This is why we quit going to the showplace gunshow -- that and many of the vendors' blatant racism.
 
I've been trying to confirm this through other sources online.

No mention at all at CNN, FOX, ABC, The Richmond Times Dispatch, BATFE site or any other of numerous places I checked.

The only source is the VCDL alert. It is the only source and shows up on several blogs and forums.

I would like to see some confirmation before we get all worked up over this.

It doesn't sound like it is true. The nics process is supposed to be confidential. So this would be an illegal conspiracy between the FBI, BATFE, the State of Virginia, the county and local police? Come on, we all know from tv that the feds don't like to work with the locals,lol. The only organizations not involved would appear to be the Department of Homeland Security and the Girl Scouts.

DM

I want to see another source before I get all worked up.

DM
 
I want to see another source before I get all worked up.
I agree. But if it is true... :cuss: :fire: If it is true, it must be documented asap so that it cannot be denied. I want signed (if not sworn) statement from the neighbors/spouses who were visited.
 
Virginia doesn't use NICS,it uses VICS*.Virgina State Police do the background checks.i guess they wee telling local police where to go.Remember that any info you give to any gvmt employee is available to any other gvmt employee.

*VICS=Virginia Intant Check System
 
wow.Seems like there trying to scare people into giveing up there rights about guns.Thats outragious the way they treated those people intruding there homes.and asking all kinds of personal questions.Personnaly i dont think its any of my neighbors bussiness if i were to go out and buy a gun.
 
One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a lot o shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up empty.
The gentleman he is referring to has posted his story here:

http://www.americanminuteman.net/forums/showthread.php?t=4289
 
After reading the gentleman's description of the incident, I'm still curious as to whether this was BATFE or local police. He states that he was put in the back of a State police car and questioned, and he spoke with a state police officer.

I realize that either way it is rediculous, but it's a little more scary to me if this is the federal gov't, and it sounds like it may just be the State.
 
ATF steps over line?

I have no way to confirm this.

Anybody see this first-hand?

qlic


The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE), who
seem to go out of their way to alienate gun owners with their
heavy-handedness, behaved in a shameful manner this last weekend at
the Showmasters' gun show in Richmond.

I had reports from members of police going to their houses while the
member was waiting for their approval to purchase a gun at the show!
The police asked the spouse and other family members questions about
the purchases and filled in a survey! "Did you know your husband was
going to a gun show today?" "Did you know your husband was going to
buy a gun today?" and many other such questions.

If no one was home at the gun purchaser's house, the police went to
the neighbors! "Did you know that your neighbor was buying a gun
today? How do you feel about him doing so?"

One member, who was carrying a personal gun to sell, was approached
by BATFE and taken to a car while they checked him out. The officer
said in front of Showmasters' management, "Did you know you need a
business license to sell a gun at this show? I have seen you at a
lot of shows - are you in the business of selling guns? I think you
are." That's called a fishing expedition and intimidation. In the
end they let the VCDL member go because their fish hooks came up
empty.

They had over 17 BATFE agents at that show. Richmond and Henrico had
a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing
a handgun to ask questions.

I guess Mayor Wilder is flush with cash all of a sudden. Too bad he
didn't use that money to put all those cops into the rougher
neighborhoods of Richmond, instead of harassing the decent citizens
who buy guns at a gun show.

And, if you are sitting down, the main BATFE agent at the show told
Showmasters' management that Richmond was going to be the model for
this kind of behavior across the nation!!!

BUT, THERE IS GOOD NEWS.

Steve Elliott, who heads up C&E Gun Shows and is affiliated with
Showmasters, along with Annette Gelles, who heads up Showmasters,
went to Washington with some lawyers to get this straightened out on
Monday. (BTW, Steve told me that he has spent in excess of $10,000
this year on legal fees fighting this kind of abuse.)

Steve and Annette were told by the BATFE in DC that BATFE would no
longer be sending officers to people's houses who were purchasing a
firearm and that what happened in Richmond should not have happened.

We will be watching carefully to see if BATFE keeps its word or not.
Report any such abuse immediately to VCDL, along with the officer's
name, badge number, and department.
 
edited because threads merged, please ignore
-------------------------------------------------
similar thread titled "Outrage in Richmond Va" is about 14 below this one. there is a link in that thread to a statement by one of the guys actually invovled. I'm eagerly awaiting some more details.
 
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