Outrage in Richmond VA

[BB62]

Those of you asking for confirmation - just who do you expect it to come from, BATFE??

There has already been a link to VCDL's "alert", and Packing.org has been referenced http://www.packing.org./news/articleview/16/ .

If you don't trust Phillip and/or VCDL, fine, but really, what confirmation do you want? I am reminded of part of Tora, Tora, Tora! where the one officer, upon gazing out at the burning Pearl Harbor, says to a higher ranking officer "Confirmation!? Is that enough confirmation for you???"

I've not seen VCDL tilt at windmills - but while we're on the subject, how about some *confirmation* of JPFO doing so?


BB62

 

[Henry Bowman]

I believe the report, but I can't expect a fence-sitter or the [biased] media to believe it without corroboration.

 

[BB62]

I'm sorry, Henry, but I really can't understand how one could be a fence sitter on a matter publicized as authentic by VCDL. In all seriousness, can you help me?

Not that it is any news to you, but the media wouldn't care if it was authentic unless they decided to publicize it, and then for sure it would be lauded as a GOOD thing.

I would sure like to know what source the fence sitters would accept as confirmatory.


BB62

 

[FPrice]

I for one am not dismissing the story outright, but I would like to see if someone can get some additional verification on just how many people were contacted and if certain people/groups were targeted?

For example was there a gang-related investigation going on? Was everyone who bought a gun checked?

I have a hard believing that the BATFE and the local PDs have enough people to run around and check all purchases at even a moderately sized gun show.

If it turns out that the story is accurate, then I would support mass lawsuits for harassment. But let's make sure that we are not tilting at windmills or falling into someone's carefully laid trap.

 

[BB62]

Fprice,

...I have a hard believing that the BATFE and the local PDs have enough people to run around and check all purchases at even a moderately sized gun show...

I agree with your desire to have *clarification* - I think that would be a good thing too, but asking for *corroboration* is, IMHO, quite a different thing, for those who have sought it.

And, on the subject of clarification, nowhere in the original statement does it say that the police checked ALL purchases at the gun show - that is a straw man argument.

IMHO, whether one, a dozen, or a hundred incidences, BATFE/police acting as described is major cause for alarm, anger, and action.


BB62

 

[FPrice]

And, on the subject of clarification, nowhere in the original statement does it say that the police checked ALL purchases at the gun show - that is a straw man argument.

Not a straw man by any stretch of the imagination but rather a well thought-out question. If they were checking people, how did they determine who to check? Were they targeting certain people/groups, was it a random check, say every fifth or tenth purchase, did they check the dealers records or were they monitoring calls to the BATFE central desk (or whoever receives these calls)?

You know, I have a better idea. Let's attack one another and save the BATFE and the black helicopter people the trouble.

 

[BB62]

FPrice,

Not a straw man by any stretch of the imagination but rather a well thought-out question. If they were checking people, how did they determine who to check? Were they targeting certain people/groups, was it a random check, say every fifth or tenth purchase, did they check the dealers records or were they monitoring calls to the BATFE central desk (or whoever receives these calls)?

The portion of your post which I quoted "I have a hard believing that the BATFE and the local PDs have enough people to run around and check all purchases at even a moderately sized gun show" was NOT a question - it was a statement.

I agree, I would like to know how it was determined whom to "check up" on, but when you go on further to say "If it turns out that the story is accurate..." how do you define accurate? Is visiting your household, or that of a neighbor, and either telling them things, or asking things of them (related to you conducting a legal transaction) not enough of a transgression, regardless of whom or how many people were "visited"?

What defines accuracy?


BB62

 

[Henry Bowman]

By "fence-sitter" I mean a person who is neither pro-gun rights nor anti-gun rights who I am trying to persuade and to whom I would like to be able to give a concrete example of how the BATFE is still out of control.

 

[Double Maduro]

<quote>Those of you asking for confirmation - just who do you expect it to come from, BATFE??

There has already been a link to VCDL's "alert", and Packing.org has been referenced http://www.packing.org./news/articleview/16/ .</quote>

No, I expect to read about it in the press or see it on the news. Not all of the media has been the friend of BTFE or any of the alphabet agencies lately.

I followed the link to packing.org and it was simply a posting of the press release, nothing more. This proves nothing.

I read the account of the man who says he was detained for hours by someone, he doesn't seem sure who it was, and had his DL confiscated. He talks about this being witnessed by the promoters and their attorney, but we hear nothing from them. Why didn't the attorney get involved?

Why have there been no news stories at all about this? Surely there is a paper somewhere that would print a story about this.

Now before you start calling people fence sitters or questioning their commitment to the 2nd ammendment, sit back and take a look at this from a little distance.

All we have to go on is one unsubstantiated report from a pro gun source, they don't even tell us where they got the information, except the vague, "reports from members".

All we have to go on with the gentleman detained, by whoever it was that detained him, is that he says it happened.

Now for a few other questions.

Why did it take the VCDL 4 days to mention this? There may be valid reasons, I would like to hear them.

Why have we seen nothing about this from any other source? Not even the NRA site had anything about it, I haven't checked in about 20 hours so that may have changed.

Why, in over 5 days, has not one other source mentioned this? The only places I can find that mention this merely reprint the notice that originated from VCDL.

There is more here than we know.

Would it be possible for someone to be pulling the wool over VCDL's eyes, in order to discredit them? Of course.

I have never once said I don't believe this, I have never said I believe it either.

I am saying that I am reserving judgement until more information, confirmation, is available.

But, I must admit, the longer this goes on, the more time that passes with no confirmation from any other source, the more it makes me wonder, why?

I think we all need to back off a step or two and take a more dispassionate look at this.

DM

 

[JohnBT]

"Was everyone who bought a gun checked?"

No. I was there. I'd give you phone numbers to call, but my friends wouldn't appreciate it.

"Now before you start calling people fence sitters or questioning their commitment to the 2nd ammendment, sit back and take a look at this from a little distance."

And that's what probably took VCDL so long to get the initial story out - waiting on the reports to come in. Go back to the story and reread the part about the 2 show promoters going to DC to discuss the situation with BATFE - they went the Monday after the show ended. I imagine eveyone involved spent a great deal of time - in addition to working - burning up the phones lines and e-mail boxes working on this. How would you go about contacting every single person who bought a gun that weekend?

As you may or may not know, VCDL is led by one man. I'm certain he is taking the time to gather information and "look at this from a little distance." He's never shown any tendency for histrionics and rash behavior - like contacting newspapers or politicians before he has his ducks in a row.

John
Member www.vcdl.org
NRA Life Member

 

[CAS700850]

If this was BATFE, and not the local P.D., my question is how they got so many feds available to both stake out the gun show and go driving all over to the different people's houses. I've had legit gun crimes go on (gun thefts, etc.) and couldn't get any help from BATFE. Maybe they're too busy asking my neighbor if they knew I bought ammunition lately.

 

[Double Maduro]

JohnBT,

He's never shown any tendency for histrionics and rash behavior - like contacting newspapers or politicians before he has his ducks in a row.

While he has not shown a tendency toward rash behavior, I have, and am trying to stop. That is why I am waiting for more information/confirmation, before passing judgement.

I applaud this mans dedication in running the VCDL.

DM

 

[Norm357]

From a link posted in this thread.

I had my first run in with these cretins today, and boy are they a bunch of you know what's!!!!

I went to a gunshow to sell some parts, and a couple of firearms. I guess because I was carrying an UZI to sell, I was public enemy #1. I was put into a squad car, my drivers license taken away, and grilled for about an hour.

Their excuse!! "We see you at alot of gunshows, and think you are buying and selling for a profit, as in a business." "We would suggest you get a business license if you continue to come to gunshows." Fortunately for me it was witnessed by none other than both promoters, and their attorney.

Here's the best part!!! I was soo shaken by the whole mess that I forgot to get any form of identification. When I went to his superior and requested the information. I was asked in a very treatening tone, "WHAT FOR!!" When I told them that I had an attorney, who was prepared to bring charges. The little dwarf turd that started the whole thing literally got in my face and started threatening me, physically. And to tell you the truth, I wished the little turd would have had the guts to hit me. I would have had about a hundred witnesses, including the laywer.

The excuse they used of, "We see you at every gunshow." Well DUH, dumb***, you should!!! I work for a gun dealer, selling guns at gunshows!! We just happened to not have been working this one.

This little turd couldn't have been more than 22-24 years old. It scares the hell out of me to think that entire generations of these morons, have, and are being raised.

To top it all off, they wouldn't give me my drivers license back!!!!! I'm soo pissed off right now, I can't stand it!!!

I guess now if you want to sell a firearm at a gunshow, you should beg these bast**** for the priviledge.

Has anybody else had this happen, and is this a harbinger of things to come??

RRRRRRIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT

 

[BB62]

Double Maduro,

No, I expect to read about it in the press or see it on the news. Not all of the media has been the friend of BTFE or any of the alphabet agencies lately.

You have quite a high standard, especially when it comes to this type of story - every account is suspect until the media (usually inaccurately) reports it? VCDL has proved itself trustworthy in everything that I have seen.

Even if there were names involved one could conclude that it still did not meet your level of "proof" because it has not been reported yet...?

Regarding the guy who supposedly was accosted by fuzz, I wholeheartedly agree that his account is suspect, but then again I am acquainted with a number of people who haven't a clue about things (as he seems not to have) like "Police do not have infinite powers".


BB62

 

[BB62]

Henry Bowman,

By "fence-sitter" I mean a person who is neither pro-gun rights nor anti-gun rights who I am trying to persuade and to whom I would like to be able to give a concrete example of how the BATFE is still out of control.

I don't understand your yardstick. What elements need to be present or what source has to report on matters in order for you to feel comfortable providing a "concrete example"?


BB62

<edited for clarity>

 

[Henry Bowman]

When I talk to someone who doesn't have or take the time to be infored through the alternative media (say, a soccer mon, for example) and I am trying to convince them that gun owners act responsibly, that liberties are being infringed, or that there are government abuses being committed, I can tell them about what happened at Ruby Ridge or Waco. When they need confirmation of the real details behind what the TV told them, I can direct them to verifiable sources. When thay say, "That doesn't happen any more or at least to ordinary people," I would like to tell then about this situation. If they say, No way! I don't believe that," am I supposed to point them to this thread or to a singe press release of a organization with a biased agenda [albeit a good one]? That won't cut it. If it is backed up by statement from multiple sources and mutiple witnesses with no stake in the outcome (the contacted neighbors, for example), it has much more credibility.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Double Maduro]

BB62

every account is suspect until the media (usually inaccurately) reports it? VCDL has proved itself trustworthy in everything that I have seen

The problem is, I don't know anything about the VCDL or the 1 person who works there and aparantly owns it.

I have no experience with him one way or another, and while he may be the most honest and scrupulous person that has ever walked the planet, I don't know that.

I have long gone past the point where I will automatically accept as fact the word of one person.

Especially when the story being reported is so potentialy explosive that I would expect to see it, if not on the national news or in the national media, at least in the home town newspaper where it supposedly took place.

We are being asked to accept this story as fact on the word of 1 person who most of us have had no contact with. I don't think waiting for confirmation is hurting the cause. I do think going off half-cocked is a waste of time and energy.

DM

 

[jefnvk]

I'm sorry, Henry, but I really can't understand how one could be a fence sitter on a matter publicized as authentic by VCDL. In all seriousness, can you help me?

but I really can't understand how one could be a fence sitter on a matter publicized as authentic by CBS. In all seriousness, can you help me?

There is probably not too many people here that would believe something from CBS, or ABC, or any other news organization without other sources, especially if it wasn't something we wanted to hear.

Big organizations sometimes screw up. Sometimes mislead. As Maduro just said, I don't know anything about VCDL. Maybe you do, and know the people, and know its credible.

As I mentioned, JPFO, a supposedly trustworthy source, put out that press release a bit ago, which was eventually discredited by the NRA and other organizations.

I don't just blindly follow anything, even things from the side I am on. I just want another source confirming it.

 

[Gewehr98]

I guess my biggest question is...

Who is the VCDL?

(Never heard of 'em)

 

[FPrice]

bb62,

"And, on the subject of clarification, nowhere in the original statement does it say that the police checked ALL purchases at the gun show - that is a straw man argument."

"Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions."

 

[BB62]

FPrice,

BB62 - "And, on the subject of clarification, nowhere in the original statement does it say that the police checked ALL purchases at the gun show - that is a straw man argument."

FPrice - "Richmond and Henrico had a large number of officers running to the homes of anyone purchasing a handgun to ask questions."

You are correct on that point. My bad.

Thanks.


BB62

 

[BB62]

Gewehr98,

VCDL - Virginia Citizen's Defense League, which is not a one person organization btw, to whomever said that.

www.vcdl.org

See the note which started all of this in their Alert Archives.


BB62

 

[Double Maduro]

BB62,

which is not a one person organization btw, to whomever said that.

I said that, someone mentioned that it was essentialy run by one man.

See the note which started all of this in their Alert Archives.

Did that yesterday, it is the same alert that is available everywhere.

DM

 

[FPrice]

Bb62...

You are correct on that point. My bad.

However, every handgun is not every gun. How many handguns versus long guns are sold at an average gun show?

The point still remains, what was the object of this exercise? Intimidation? Dry run? Looking for real criminals?

I don't deny it happened, I just want more information before we make a stand.

 

[skidmark]

Confirming the "rumor"

OK, so everybody is asking for confirmation/corroboration.

I know Phillip Van Cleave enough to say "Hi" to him at gun shows and at local political stuff. I also know he pretty much runs www.vcdl.org by himself, although the organization is a whole lot more than just him and the web page.

So I sent an e-mail this PM, and got a response. Here it is, and if Phil does not like that I posted without asking him I will apologize in person next week when I see him.

I will update it sometime over the weekend.

At 6:55 PM -0400 8/19/05, [skidmark] wrote:
>Is there anything since the 8/15 VCDL Alert?
>
>I have seen the issue all over the forums and BBSs, but nothing
>since a post from somebody over at American Malitia who says they
>were caught up in it.

I'm going to chill tonight, do some shooting at the range tomorrow (Dominion Shooting if anyone wants to come by about 11 AM) and then check www.vcdl.org to see if he has posted. If not, I'll check Sunday.

stay safe.

skidmark