P320 Drop Test Failures?

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TomJ

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Attached is a link to a story regarding P320 drop test failures. Apparently it passed drop tests when dropped with the bore facing down or sideways, but doesn't pass when it's facing up. I spoke with Sig's customer support, and they're claiming there are no issues and have passed quite a few drop tests, although they could not confirm in what manner it was dropped during these tests. Nothing to worry about, or a cause for concern?


http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ig-sauer-p320-pistols-following-drop-testing/
 
Funny, the Army didn't seem to find any problems.

And after three years, this seems to be the first time anyone noticed this "problem"....

. . . There have been zero (0) reported drop-related P320 incidents in the U.S. commercial market, with hundreds of thousands of guns delivered to date. . . .
 
The truth behind this rabbit hole non-news item has already been explored to death on other forum boards. The short of it, there is nothing to it beyond the safety precautions applicable to any loaded firearm.
 
I just got a P320, I like that the trigger doesn't have any levers or hinges like the Glock, M&P, etc. "normal" striker fired pistols do. But I have been wondering what design feature replaces it, as its obviously to prevent the trigger's mass from "pulling itself" when dropped onto a hard surface muzzle up -- what the 1911 grip safety prevents.


I got mine as a range gun, but I'm a firm believer that no modern firearm should ever discharge when dropped. Hiding behind passing ANSI "standardized" tests IMHO doesn't cut it. I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out.

They could end up with a mess on their hands like the Taurus Millennium class action lawsuit.

OTOH a lot of "the gun fired when" dropped are really "I dropped it and trying to catch it, I caught the trigger and it fired."
 
The SIG P320 was not felt to require a trigger tab safety because on a P320 the trigger bar moves forward (toward the muzzle) as the trigger is pulled back toward the grip. The mass of the trigger and the mass of the trigger guard moving in contrary directions was felt to negate each other and prevent the trigger from moving back from inertia.

Although many don't realize it, the trigger tab safety on the Glock is a drop safe feature to prevent trigger activation from inertia when dropped of violently bumped. In the Glock and most other striker-action pistols, the trigger bar moves toward the rear as the trigger is pulled to the rear.

One potential problem is that the original P320 trigger has been modified since the P320 was designed and introduced. In order to address trigger sting issues some were experiencing, SIG changed over to the so-called "adverse" trigger. The original trigger was hollowed out on its backside all the way to the tip. The adverse trigger is "filled in" (solid) at the tip on the backside, and also has the so-called "mud flap" projection at the front to shield the interior of the frame. These modifications had to add some mass, how much I don't know.

If a pistol is dropped muzzle up, the inertia of the trigger could possibly be sufficient to cause the trigger to continue to move toward the ground when the rest of the pistol's travel is abruptly arrested. If this happens, the trigger itself will deactivate the striker safety and release the striker.
 
I don't put a lot of stock in worrying if a pistol is drop safe inasmuch as most of the perceived issues would take cosmicly bad luck to replicate.

I've not heard of any issues from credible sources that the 320 will fire if dropped rearward.

That said, let's say that one does fire in that situation. With a sample of 1, we have no empirical evidence as to the likelihood of a repeated drop. Is it 20%, 2%, .002%? If it is indeed a small probability that a randomly chosen P320 will fire (let's go with 2%) if dropped just right on the tail end of the gun with significant force, I'm actually ok with that from a personal standpoint.

That means that from a statiscal point of view that I can drop my gun just right 98 times out of 100 to get it fire unintentionally.

One, I really don't make it a habit of dropping my guns, 2 if I drop my gun due to an emergency (ie fighting for my life) the safety of the drop will be about the 25th thing on my mind at the time, 3 that's a weird way for a gun to fall.

I would take some risk of drop firing in order to keep that sweet metal SIG trigger without out the gritty mush and dingus of other designs.

However, to be honest, my guess is that a top manufacturer like SIG practices something similar to Sigma Six failure rates in most aspects. I don't know that for a fact, but companies that practice that level of control are in "act of God" range.

If you managed to drop your 320, and if it hit just right, and if it fired, I think that would be the universe telling you that that bullet was going that way whether you like it or not.

Personally, I will continue to whistle past the graveyard and carry my p320 devil may care.
 
One, I really don't make it a habit of dropping my guns,

Aside from Youtubers vying for clicks. I dont think many of us do intentionally.
Course crap happens. I recently broke a Glock by accidentally dropping the slide on a tile floor.
 
I don't put a lot of stock in worrying if a pistol is drop safe inasmuch as most of the perceived issues would take cosmicly bad luck to replicate.
Unless both of the linked articles are complete fabrications there does seem to be a legitimate reason for concern.

3 out of 4 pistols they tested would fire when dropped so that the rear of the slide hit the ground; the one that would not discharge had a slightly different trigger mechanism than the other 3. Muzzle up discharge is what I would call a worst case scenario for a dropped gun.

It was repeatable with drops from as low as 30" with the pistol discharging "a significant percentage of the time".

https://www.omahaoutdoors.com/blog/sig-sauer-p320-fails-drop-test/

Looks like there will be more drop-testing results to come.

I'm pretty surprised about how this seems to be turning out. When I read the first article about DPD taking the guns off the approved list, I assumed it was some sort of miscommunication between SIG and DPD.
 
The first incident with DPD was the armorer watching a video online and then raising a red flag over it. Since SIG wasn't answering the phone 24/7 the department then went overboard with their decision, plain and simple.

The next incident was a vendor testing for drop safety with primed cartridges. There isn't much protocol written up about how they did it. There is also a definite bias against SIG at present since the Army didn't choose Glock, and that bias shouldn't be dismissed in an age of internet politicking. It is a known fact there are organizations which have targeted various venues to suppress certain viewpoints, and there are in fact businesses which offer for a fee the ability to put posters on line to fill forums with alternate viewpoints.

This is the modern age of communications and it is currently experiencing something we haven't seen much of in the past, completely free and unfettered dissemination of information. Those who want to control it aren't happy and retaliating, others just take advantage of it until they are outed.

Let's put the P320 in a more historic perspective - how bad was/is the 1911 about discharging when it falls on the hammer? More than a few have gone off. Yet it's possibly the most popular handgun around, with fans still insisting it should never have been discontinued from service and smaller agencies in DOD still issuing customs. We recently had a sell off of warranty 1911's that were previously Marine issue and the demand was so high they weren't discounted much. It was entirely a finish problem.

It's highly arguable in some circles that any 1911 is drop safe when slammed on the hammer. Yet here we are, discussing two incidents, one of which wasn't even based on any testing at all. What we have is too intense a focus on the "Breaking News!" and a lot less overall reflection and experience.

I'll agree with SIG on this - ANY gun could go off if dropped. Some dispute that as lacking any research to prove it, others see it as simply good safe consideration. Abuse a gun and it can. Lets not forget the recent incidents documented by on site observation of cartridge rounds going of just hitting the gravel at a range, or mishandled unloading. We are dealing with contact explosives as an initiator - they are inherently dangerous by definition. So, if you want to drop your guns on hard pavement, just unload them - they won't go off with no cartridge in the chamber. All you have to do is make sure that will happen 100% of the time.

Good luck with that.
 
Here is another video, posted by Andrew Tuohy who did the video cited above, that shows how and from what height the pistols were dropped:

 
The first incident with DPD was the armorer watching a video online and then raising a red flag over it. Since SIG wasn't answering the phone 24/7 the department then went overboard with their decision, plain and simple.

The next incident was a vendor testing for drop safety with primed cartridges. There isn't much protocol written up about how they did it. There is also a definite bias against SIG at present since the Army didn't choose Glock, and that bias shouldn't be dismissed in an age of internet politicking. It is a known fact there are organizations which have targeted various venues to suppress certain viewpoints, and there are in fact businesses which offer for a fee the ability to put posters on line to fill forums with alternate viewpoints.

This is the modern age of communications and it is currently experiencing something we haven't seen much of in the past, completely free and unfettered dissemination of information. Those who want to control it aren't happy and retaliating, others just take advantage of it until they are outed.

Let's put the P320 in a more historic perspective - how bad was/is the 1911 about discharging when it falls on the hammer? More than a few have gone off. Yet it's possibly the most popular handgun around, with fans still insisting it should never have been discontinued from service and smaller agencies in DOD still issuing customs. We recently had a sell off of warranty 1911's that were previously Marine issue and the demand was so high they weren't discounted much. It was entirely a finish problem.

It's highly arguable in some circles that any 1911 is drop safe when slammed on the hammer. Yet here we are, discussing two incidents, one of which wasn't even based on any testing at all. What we have is too intense a focus on the "Breaking News!" and a lot less overall reflection and experience.

I'll agree with SIG on this - ANY gun could go off if dropped. Some dispute that as lacking any research to prove it, others see it as simply good safe consideration. Abuse a gun and it can. Lets not forget the recent incidents documented by on site observation of cartridge rounds going of just hitting the gravel at a range, or mishandled unloading. We are dealing with contact explosives as an initiator - they are inherently dangerous by definition. So, if you want to drop your guns on hard pavement, just unload them - they won't go off with no cartridge in the chamber. All you have to do is make sure that will happen 100% of the time.

Good luck with that.
Actually, the first video that purported to demonstrate that the P320 might not be drop safe emerged on youtube some time ago. The author was largely unknown and the video was withdrawn after the Dallas PD incident went public so I do not remember the author's name (Zeilberger?). That video was widely criticized. Bruce Gray, who has been intimately involved in P320 design went on record saying that the pistol shown in the video had either been modified or the video had been faked outright.

That video showed a P320 dropped with the muzzle inclined downward, striking the frame grip and then the muzzle end of the frame and slide. In the video, the trigger moved backwards as the front of the slide struck, counter to inertia, although conceivably the inertia of the trigger bar could have caused it to move forward. I personally discounted that video and still do, and the fact that it was pulled contributes to its lack of credibility.

Then the Dallas PD memo leaked leading to much speculation about accidental discharges experienced by the DPD which never occurred. Ron Cohen made a public statement that the P320 had been extensively drop tested and that there had never been an accidental discharge of a dropped P320 in the commercial market. Some questioned his qualifier "commercial", however. Bruce Gray again went on record saying the P320 had been extensively tested, was drop safe, and that the whole DPD episode had been the result of failed communication, i.e, a lot of smoke and no fire.

But before the smoke had completely cleared, Mr Tuohy, in response to the DPD action, decided to drop test some P320s and released the results two or three days ago. To my knowledge, neither Bruce Gray nor SIG Sauer has yet to respond to these latest tests and videos.

And it turns out that there has been at least one alleged accidental discharge from a dropped P320 in the LE market. A Stamford CT police officer is suing SIG Sauer for 6 million dollars claiming that he was shot in the leg when he dropped his holstered P320 on the pavement. Stamford PD has temporarily suspended use of the P320 as a result.

http://www.ctlawtribune.com/top-sto...pped-Holstered-Pistol-Sues-Gunmaker-Sig-Sauer

On another forum, there is an allegation that a second accidental discharge of a P320 was experienced by another law enforcement officer who is a member of a department somewhere in the Midwest, but no details have been released so the validity of that allegation can't be assessed.

Those who are interested might also take a look at these videos, taken by a member of another forum:



 
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I understand skepticism of the testing procedures, but not outright dismissal. I'm sure others will attempt to replicate the tests. Sig should also, and if it is a repeatable problem on working firearms, issue a recall. Owners may be comfortable with the risk or choose to send guns in for the mod. It wouldn't be the first time a worst case scenario recall was issued. It wouldn't be the first time a gun was adopted by military and LE before all the kinks were worked out.

Any bashing on one side or defensiveness on the other aren't all that necessary.
 
I'm just shocked the industry tests are so insufficient. I have a feeling SIG did all the tests, DOD did all the tests, turns out the tests weren't good enough! I wonder how old those tests are and if they were written with the super light pull strikers in mind.

I get a bit of a laugh from the people dismissing these "unprofessional" tests... if ANYONE under ANY circumstances can get the gun to fire without a human finger pulling that trigger they've proven the gun unsafe. If anything I trust someone with no clear financial stake more than someone on the company payroll, like Cohen, extolling the virtue and safety of a pistol he needs to sell to pay his rent. If you're unconcerned with drop safety because you don't plan to drop your gun I just hope you don't hurt anyone with that attitude. THINGS HAPPEN.

SIG said there have been no drop failures, and YouTube proves that there have been. "No commercial reports" doesn't jive with the tests I've seen, those look like reports to me, and I have a feeling something actually happened at DPD besides some rookie reading the manual and being overly cautious. I suspect DPD is going to get some nice free pistols from Sig in the years to come in exchange for not confirming reports of that training accident "rumor". Cohen and Gray are about to have a credibility crisis when more agencies test this gun and reproduce those "unprofessional" results.

I don't really think it's a bash to say the p320 is proven to be not a safe gun as designed.
 
Sig makes some great stuff but this would be a deal killer for me. I would never carry a gun that wasn't drop safe. I might use it as a fun range toy but I wouldn't carry it. I have seen enough in print and video to convince me that this is a real issue. I don't rule out a future purchase since I am betting Sig will eventually fix the problem.

For those who say they are not concerned because they never drop their guns, don't say never. I "Never" dropped my guns either until I fell down a steep trail while hiking. My 92fs bounced out of the holster and tumbled end over end down a rocky hill for about 30 feet. There is something to be said about an old fashioned hammer block.
 
I have 3 P320's, including the RX, which has become one of my primary carry guns. If I have a bias it's towards the P320. That being said, I'm watching these videos and it's pretty clear that there's a problem. I've been carrying over 3 years and dropped a gun once. It does happen, no matter how careful you are. For those willing to dismiss this after watching it happen, I'm wondering why and if there's something definitive you're aware of that allows us to discount what we're seeing.
 
I don't really think it's a bash to say the p320 is proven to be not a safe gun as designed.

Lol. It's not safe to say or conclude anything much less claim something is "proven" based off a Youtube video. By the same reasoning, the earth is flat and George Bush masterminded 9/11.
 
The videos above do not test a gun firing when "dropped." They are forcefully throwing a gun on the ground a half dozen times or more until the gun fires. IMO that is unrealistic and not a valid test and unfair to any product. With enough effort you can cause a failure in almost any product.
 
The videos above do not test a gun firing when "dropped." They are forcefully throwing a gun on the ground a half dozen times or more until the gun fires. IMO that is unrealistic and not a valid test and unfair to any product. With enough effort you can cause a failure in almost any product.

Watch the video in post 13. It's clearly dropped, not thrown. We can't see whether they're dropping or throwing it in the videos in post 14.
 
Watch the video in post 13. It's clearly dropped, not thrown. We can't see whether they're dropping or throwing it in the videos in post 14.
Are you telling me you believe what you see on the Net without knowing how it was done? What if he had to drop the gun 50x times before something inside broke and cause the gun to fire and they show only that drop? I'm done here, have fun...
 
I own two P320s. It is a pistol that I have recommended to others. I am not planning to get rid of them but I do regard this as a potential issue.

Could the video results have been fabricated? Well sure, the pistols could have been modified before testing. But what motive would Omaha Outdoors, which sells SIGs and has endorsed the P320 have for now putting out a fabricated video to malign SIG Sauer?

People are free to interpret the videos any way they wish. In my view, the pistols are being dropped in a way that could easily happen in real life. IMO this is an issue that SIG needs to address and I think it will require a bit more than another "feel good" statement from Ron Cohen.
 
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