P320 Drop Test Failures?

[TomJ]

Are you telling me you believe what you see on the Net without knowing how it was done? What if he had to drop the gun 50x times before something inside broke and cause the gun to fire and they show only that drop? I'm done here, have fun...

That's not what I'm saying. Sig and their backers are saying there's no problem. Others are saying there are. Both are pointing to different drop tests and there have been reported incidents of them going off when dropped. Is there a problem? Who knows, which is why questions are being asked. Like I said before, my bias is towards the P320 and I'm hoping there's no problem, but I'm not willing to dismiss that possibility.

 

[tarosean]

another vid.

 

[Fiv3r]

I have to say that the video gives me pause. If the gun in question wasn't a SIG, I would be tempted to trade mine off (an admittedly knee-jerk reaction). However, I'm going to wait this out. The P320 is such a fantastic shooting gun. The trigger is incredible, and I'm able to squeeze out 1911 accuracy. I'm really "all in" on this gun.

That said, I dunno if I'm quite ready to give the gun a pass for carry until we get a reason as to why it is happening. Is the trigger moving? Is the striker moving? Are the primers of the ammo of the softer variety? I still don't think the gun is unsafe to carry (factoring in the law of averages of when it is outside of my retention holster). However, to be honest, I am going to go poke around the gun shop today for another polymer pistol to try out while I see how this 320 thing shakes out.

Short of the guns in the video being altered by torture test damage or fiddling with the chassis, I'm not sure if I would call it a non-issue. The last one didn't seem to take a lot of effort to make the gun go off. Granted, I realize this is one video of one gun being dropped one time.

Still, SIG has my patience. An explanation is all I am asking for right now. If it can (and needs to) be fixed with a recall, so be it. Maybe a free magazine or grip frame for the trouble would be nice.

In the meantime, I think I may see what else is out there. It doesn't take much arm-twisting to get me to buy a new gun I still think the P320 is a hellova weapon.

EDIT TO ADD:
That last video gives me the willies. Man, I dunno. That seems like a pretty fair test under some potentially reasonable situations.

 

[Kano383]

Omaha Outdoors are very comprehensive in their video, and explain both the cause and the remedy to the problem: the trigger has been changed to a heavier one (in actual weight, not in pull) at some time, and this excess weight allow it to fire the gun due to its inertia, if dropped at the right angle.

Swap that trigger for the lighter version, and the drop-firing ceases. The addition of a trigger tab would also solve the issue (although personally I hate these contraptions).

Same video as the one in the blog linked by JohnKSA higher up:

 

[Cump]

The last vid may not be scientific without more guns, but I think we can trust TTAG to be transparent and not fabricate ...

I suspect a recall is coming...

 

[pblanc]

Well, this just in (although SIG is not calling it a recall):

http://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/sig-sauer-issues-voluntary-upgrade-p320-pistol/

and:

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/20...ffers-voluntary-trigger-upgrade-p320-pistols/

I will probably wait until August 14 to learn the details of the "voluntary trigger upgrade" before deciding whether to send my two P320s in. I might even wait a little longer to see if those who do get the "upgrade" experience any detrimental effects on trigger function". But if not, I will definitely send mine in.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

I have nothing against Sig in fact I will probably buy a 320 after this issue is corrected.
Makes me wonder about the value of military testing.

 

[Fiv3r]

Well I guess we'll see what they propose to do on Monday. I'll be sending mine in.

I don't think the concrete drop test isn't too unreasonable when you consider LEO contracts. Cops pull their sidearm way more than soldiers do and are almost assuredly going to be on pavement of some type.

I'm heading to the LGS to poke around.

 

[tarosean]

Makes me wonder about the value of military testing.

Military guns have a thumb safety. While I have no clue how they implemented it, nor what it disengages. It could very well be the reason there were no reports previously.
Course Glocks lawsuit contended that there wasn't much testing to begin with. Maybe Sig had the better strippers and whores this time around?

 

[TomJ]

I spoke with Sig's customer service just now. They're announcing a voluntary upgrade program on the 14th of this month. They had no other details as they announced it a few minutes before I called, but they are addressing this.

 

[M1key]

Would the Sig P250 do this? I haven't heard.

M

 

[pblanc]

I doubt very much that the P250 could possibly have the same issue. The P320 has a striker that is pretty much or completely tensioned when the slide cycles. If the pistol is dropped in such a way that the trigger has enough momentum to move backwards on impact, there really isn't that much resisting its travel, just the striker safety bar and friction of the sear surfaces. It was thought that this and the inertia of the trigger bar, which moves in a direction 180 degrees opposite that of the trigger would, be enough to resist trigger movement but apparently not.

The P250 is hammer fired and being DAO the hammer cannot be cocked. The pressure of the mainspring is resisting the travel of the trigger rearward and I would think that would be enough to resist trigger movement regardless of the force with which the pistol struck.

 

[ATLDave]

In some of the videos, you can see the trigger "pull itself" via inertia.

 

[JellyJar]

Well I have at least for now replaced my P320sc with my P250sc. The only real problem here is that my P250sc does not have night sights, otherwise as it uses the same magazines, holster, mag pouch and belt that I have been using for the P320sc so I am good to go.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

I was looking pretty hard at a P320 compact, the manual safety version, the other day. Glad I decided to wait.

 

[Tirod]

The military contract guns already had a voluntary modification by SIG to change the trigger at no cost to the government. It's NOT the same gun as the P320 because of it.

As for the new trigger to be retrofitted to the existing 500,000 guns sold, be careful what you ask for. SIG is on record saying that because of the numbers involved it requires shutting down production of P320's. When only 4 of 500,000 guns produced seem to have an issue, then this is going to create more expense, raising prices, and then establishing a standard for other gunmakers to measure up to. I see Ruger's recall on the first gen LCP's as the precedent - a few owners mishandling the gun were the issue there.

Considering the larger number of people who shoot themselves in the leg with Glocks, I don't see them as a very good investment. What everybody is agonizing over is whether the gun might discharge - at the rate of .00008% chance, and it requires a human to bobble handling the gun. Therefore under no other perspective can it be said the gun is entirely at fault - you have to mishandle it so badly it falls to the floor, loaded, and aimed at you or your loved ones.

If you think it can happen, then I suggest you sell all your guns because you are the source of the problem and can't be trusted with one.

 

[JR24]

The military contract guns already had a voluntary modification by SIG to change the trigger at no cost to the government. It's NOT the same gun as the P320 because of it.

As for the new trigger to be retrofitted to the existing 500,000 guns sold, be careful what you ask for. SIG is on record saying that because of the numbers involved it requires shutting down production of P320's. When only 4 of 500,000 guns produced seem to have an issue, then this is going to create more expense, raising prices, and then establishing a standard for other gunmakers to measure up to. I see Ruger's recall on the first gen LCP's as the precedent - a few owners mishandling the gun were the issue there.

Considering the larger number of people who shoot themselves in the leg with Glocks, I don't see them as a very good investment. What everybody is agonizing over is whether the gun might discharge - at the rate of .00008% chance, and it requires a human to bobble handling the gun. Therefore under no other perspective can it be said the gun is entirely at fault - you have to mishandle it so badly it falls to the floor, loaded, and aimed at you or your loved ones.

If you think it can happen, then I suggest you sell all your guns because you are the source of the problem and can't be trusted with one.

While I agree it is unlikely the case, it may not be YOU who drops the gun, folks do odd stuff at the range sometimes. Sure they shouldn't but it happens. Making new guns drop safe should just be a no brainer these days, what with easy access to media, social media hysterics and a litigious society.

Its like having a car that if you get into a head on collision, from the correct angle, at the right speed... explodes. Sure, its really really unlikely and if you do your part (proper defensive driving) the chances of head on collisions are very slim.

But there are other drivers out there and if my options, all else being the same, are for a gun with a small chance of turing "oops" into tragedy... I'll take the safer option.

YMMV, of course, but with so many excellent other options out there, why risk it.

 

[JohnKSa]

When only 4 of 500,000 guns produced seem to have an issue, then this is going to create more expense, raising prices, and then establishing a standard for other gunmakers to measure up to.

Based on the number of guns tested and the ones that have shown the problem, it would be more accurate to say that it is likely a significant percentage of the production can be expected to have the problem.

In other words, if you only test 4 guns out of a production run of 500,000 and 3 of them fail, it is more reasonable to assume that the failure rate is something in the neighborhood of 3 out of 4 (75%) than to assume that you somehow managed to find the only 3 guns out of the half million production run that had the problem.

 

[ECVMatt]

It cracks up how brand loyal we have become. Clearly there is
a problem and people keep going on about how they never drop their guns and that the tests were contrived. Sig makes great guns, but let's just be honest about it and address the problem. I'm sure it will all work out.

 

[tarosean]

Based on the number of guns tested and the ones that have shown the problem, it would be more accurate to say that it is likely a significant percentage of the production can be expected to have the problem.

This there are vids on other boards showing people swing their 320's into rubber mallets and they discharge. So it is a number far great than 4.

 

[tarosean]

It cracks up how brand loyal we have become.

I think we have been that way for quite some time. Think Chevy vs. Ford, etc. An argument that's been around since I was a we little tyke close to 50yrs ago.

 

[ECVMatt]

I think we have been that way for quite some time. Think Chevy vs. Ford, etc. An argument that's been around since I was a we little tyke close to 50yrs ago.

I totally get this, but what is amazing to me is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that a problem exist. It would be like a Ford Pinto owner telling other folks that if you got rear ended, the gas tank ruptured, and you burnt to death, it was because you used your brakes wrong....

Sig has done an exemplary job of launching new products and expanding into new markets. With this will come some growing pains. Their main competitor, at least at this point, Glock has done the complete antithesis. Glock has simply refined an existing product ad nauseam. However, this has helped Glock become pretty bullet proof, so maybe it's not all that bad.

Sig's problem is minor and they are addressing it, now if only some P320 owners would address their denial issues.....

 

[vba]

Is the "Voluntary Trigger Upgrade" the same as a recall?

I've got one of the Remington 700's that requires the safety upgrade and it was a "recall". I voluntarily elected not to send it in.

 

[Blakenzy]

I find it scary how some SIG owners, or fans, are so eager to rationalize and excuse a clear cut SAFETY HAZARD. I can see how the company would try to deny it and cover it up, but end users?

As I see it, the problem is two fold, one compunding the other:

Problem 1) SIG Sauer launced a service/combat pistol that is clearly not drop safe (thought it was OK that their 21st century pistol to have the same problem that single action revolver from the 1800's, required to be carried with an empty chamber to be reasonably safe)

and

Problem 2) A [formerly] reputable company as SIG did not take responsability on its own initiative, and is still trying to downplay and ignore a major safety issue, parsing words and being sketchy about how serious the problem really is. Voluntary upgrade? not good enough!

This will all lead to some foolish person wanting to keep using their vaunted pistol as is, possibly next to me, and being foolish will probably drop it in some fashion. Excuse me but I don't want to play the p320 roulette

 

[wally]

The Caracal C & F debacle comes to mind:
https://caracalusa.com/press/caracal_recall_update/