Paul Vs. Thompson

Paul Vs. Thompson

  • Ron Paul

    Votes: 204 40.0%
  • Fred Thompson

    Votes: 306 60.0%

  • Total voters
    510
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.
You still have not answered the question. Accusing someone of not being high road is not an answer.
The question is: would sit by and watch others die and take no action?
 
The question is: would sit by and watch others die and take no action?
I did answer it, and I said I would take action. I also explained why this doesn't count as "initiation of aggression." And finally, I pointed out that an act of self-defense doesn't justify initiating aggression in a new direction, for example the shooting of bystanders.

I'm pretty sure that's a thorough, complete answer to your question. If there's more I can fill in for you, please ask.

--Len.
 
But what if you DO kill an innocent bystander?
Generally speaking, the killing of an innocent bystander is punished as manslaughter, and rightly so. The only exceptions are honest-to-goodness accidents--and shooting at one person but hitting the wrong one is NOT such an accident.

This also is something you already know, since you've been trained in the defensive use of handguns. The rights and wrongs of it don't change when the number of attackers and defenders gets large.

--Len.
 
Are you sure you would not just run off? Because that is what you are suggesting we do.

Well, we did run over there to fight in the first place...I don't think the analogy applies anyway, the Iraq war is not a defensive action, at best, it's preemptive, which is not the same.
 
Are you sure you would not just run off? Because that is what you are suggesting we do.
I think it's clear that I'm suggesting nothing of the kind. Among other things, I suggest something that Bush and Pelosi would both shrink away from in horror: arming American citizens. Armed persons on the 9/11 aircraft would have prevented the entire tragedy from even happening.

I also suggest deploying US troops on the US border. You know, the place where bad guys entering the country do their "entering." The place where keeping bad guys out is easiest to implement, and where such action is absolutely, unquestionably, defensive in nature. Bush and Pelosi both shrink away from that one in horror as well. Pelosi because illegals are in important voting block, and Bush because... I have no idea why. What's wrong with him?

There are two strong, positive steps, that would do much more good than invading any six countries you can name. That's a far cry from hiding in the basement waiting for the bad guys to come get us.

--Len.
 
Ironically, when the botched invasion ultimately fails, you'll accuse "Len and people like him" of "sabotaging" it.

Well, if you actually listen to the words of the Al-Queda leadership and folks of that ilk, if the US government wasn't so divided, then they wouldn't be fighting like this in Iraq.

They're fighting because they believe we will quit and leave them alone. Then they can collapse the Iraqi government and take over.

Every liberal soundbyte on the news is a victory for them. If we presented a united front, then the war would already be over.

The badguys wouldn't squander all of their resources and men if they didn't think they could gain something by it. They believe that if they hurt us long enough, eventually the Democrats will win in the US, and we'll leave Iraq, and they win.

Why fight if they knew we were committed to staying, no matter what? But every soldier that they can kill, every head they saw off, every bomb they detonate, gets them on the news, and shoves the opinion polls that much further toward pull out.

Pretty simple stuff actually.
 
The simple fact is that we have killed more terrorists in Iraq in the past four years than in the past 50 years combined. They come in from across the borders eagerly seeking death and we help them find it. They have peace, we have peace. It's a win-win situtation.
 
Well, if you actually listen to the words of the Al-Queda leadership and folks of that ilk, if the US government wasn't so divided, then they wouldn't be fighting like this in Iraq.
That argument always gives me pause. I definitely believed it when it came to interpreting the Vietnam war. If they believe we'll stay there until the last man is dead, would they give up and go home? That's basically the question.

The argument is less and less persuasive to me as I survey the guerrilla wars of the past three centuries, and especially the early 21st, where "asymmetric warfare" is all the rage. The fact is that people who've looked into the subject, referring here to the guerrilla leaders themselves, know that a guerrilla resistance which is popular with the people has overwhelming odds in its favor.

Because of their popularity, the people will generally refrain from turning them in to the opposing military. Instead the locals will usually hide them. And because the insurgents are locals themselves, they can blend into the population: the same guy planting an IED in the wee hours, can pass through the checkpoint with a wave and a nod on the way to his day job. Worse, again because they're locals, the job is never done: you can pacify a city, only to have everything flare up again later. Some of the insurgents flee and return after pacification; some of them simply stay there and keep their noses clean for a while.

Knowing these things, the military faces a hideous challenge: how do they protect the "friendlies" from the "enemy," when the friendlies and the enemy are impossible to tell apart? If you catch them in the act, the you know they're the enemy--but most of the time, you have no idea which is which. This puts the soldiers under a terrible strain, because despite their best intentions to work with the friendlies, to win "hearts and minds," and all the rest, they know that the kids they're playing soccer with, or the ladies they help across the street, might be the same ones that planted the bomb that killed their buddies. Everyone is suspect. That's an intolerable strain, and as time goes by it's impossible to endure that strain without increasingly seeing every "friendly" as a probable enemy in disguise.

As that strain increases, accidental killings of "friendlies" will also increase. A few who tend to be mentally unstable will take to raping and pillaging, like the head case who was recently convicted of raping a girl and killing her family. But the decent majority will have more accidents too, simply because they're on a continuous hair-trigger alert in an environment in which everyone is a potential enemy.

The killing of friendlies will always increase the ranks of the insurgents, as well as popular support for them. Relatives and loved ones will want revenge. That's especially true in the case of Arab culture, where the concept of revenge dates back to the earliest bedouin, but it's true of people everywhere.

Knowing that the odds overwhelmingly favor the insurgents, and that every effort to quell the insurgents actually helps their cause, makes guerrilla insurgency a very attractive strategy. It has been used successfully many times, whether or not the occupying force was lacking in political support back home.

So the likeliest analysis indicates that the insurgency was the strategy of choice on its own merits, and internal debate concerning US foreign policy is not to blame for it.

--Len.
 
So the likeliest analysis indicates that the insurgency was the strategy of choice on its own merits, and internal debate concerning US foreign policy is not to blame for it.

Yes, because that totally fits your preconceived notions. Interestingly enough, the people that actually run Al-Queda disagree with you, but don't let that hold you back. :rolleyes:
 
Yes, because that totally fits your preconceived notions. Interestingly enough, the people that actually run Al-Queda disagree with you, but don't let that hold you back.
How do you explain Hizbullah's successful use of the same strategy last year in Lebanon? Is that also explained by debate in the United States?

--Len.
 
I said it before I will say it again: Good debate is good, if you are looking for real answers, not preaching about what you believe your truths are.
 
:rolleyes: If you debated statagy, that would be fine. But you equate us to terrorist and put down the US for killing innocents. You take the side of the people we're fighting and try to make us look bad, best you can. You even debate who "us" & "we" are and exlude yourself from us and we. Most of what you've written in this thread has been anti US and pro Islamic Jihadist. You won't even call them that, you call them innocents. You defend them, the enemy. You debate who the enemy is. You suggest we're the enemy. It's disgusting. And you don't see that your action help the enemy. Wait, you don't think the people we're fighting are the enemy. It's obviously purposeful. You're motives? I have no idea but their not for the better of this country and it's people because you're a smart man, you know exactly what your doing. If they are, you're a very confused man.
 
Good debate is good, if you are looking for real answers, not preaching about what you believe your truths are.
Fair enough. On the other hand, there are many layers to the discussion. For example, whether the occupation can work is one level. Whether the golden rule is negotiable is another. Attitudes to Arabs and Muslims in general is another.

--Len.
 
You take the side of the people we're fighting...
Again with this. :rolleyes:

The strategy is ineffective, because it strengthens the terrorists. The terrorists are evil. That doesn't justify killing innocents in the name of fighting them.

You keep trying to boil it down to, "You either support the occupation, or you love Bin Ladin and want to lick his boots."

--Len.
 
Len- We seem to agree that we both want to fight the Jihadists. You appear to want to fight at home. I would rather fight over there than have to worry about protecting my wife and kids at home. It really is that simple.
 
We seem to agree that we both want t fight the Jihadists. You appear to want to fight at home. I would rather fight over there...
Perfectly understandable. The practical problem with that is that we can't: for each terrorist we kill, two more take his place. The "fight them over there" strategy feeds terrorism. The moral problem is that, although it's fine to fight the terrorists wherever and whenever, it's not acceptable to kill innocents in the process.

--Len.
 
How do you explain Hizbullah's successful use of the same strategy last year in Lebanon? Is that also explained by debate in the United States?

Easy, if you follow Isreali politics, they have a deep divide also. Look what happened to Likud in the 2006 elections. The bad guys know the western world very well, and exploit our debates as a weakness.

While politicians do and say anything they can to rise to power, the bad guys exploit it and keep killing people.

Not exactly rocket science. Al-Queda's own leadership say that this is the plan. The ones in charge are actually relatively smart. (in a very evil way). The ones directing these operations are not the goat herders strapping bombs to themselves.

Oh, but wait, my side is supposed to be rascist bigots... Why is it then that Budney's side is required to believe that these guys are just a bunch of poor dumb, victimized, yokels, with no long term plan, who only react to big bully Americans?
 
You appear to want to fight at home. I would rather fight over there than have to worry about protecting my wife and kids at home. It really is that simple.

Yes, the "lost puppy" theory of terrorism. Color me skeptical.

Just wanted to express support for Len here.
 
Easy, if you follow Isreali politics, they have a deep divide also.
OK, now explain the successful Afghan insurgency against the Soviets. Were they "deeply divided" too? :D

Why is it then that Budney's side is required to believe that these guys are just a bunch of poor dumb, victimized, yokels, with no long term plan, who only react to big bully Americans?
The opposite is true. Bin Ladin had a plan, and sadly for all of us it's working perfectly. He wanted the US to spend millions for every dollar he spent, to bleed us in a war of attrition. For the price of a few airline tickets, he's already gotten us to spend about a trillion, lose more soldiers than the original 9/11 victims, permanently maim or wound 10X that number, and take solid steps toward an authoritarian state in the US--all while providing free recruiting for terrorist organizations, toppling a secular/socialist regime that he didn't like anyway, and unleashing civil war in the Mideast that only benefits religious extremists.

--Len.
 
If we fought them here innocents would die here as well. There is no way to avoid it. Also this country would really turn into a police state a lot faster than it already is. Imagine Clinton fighting terrorists in our backyard so much for civil rights...

I do not know if two more will always spring up ready to die. You might have noticed the number of suicide attacks is way down. That strategy was determined to have a couple of flaws. Not that they don't still do it, just not as much. When you make a struggle hopeless, people give up. It is the hope that keeps them going.
 
OK, now explain the successful Afghan insurgency against the Soviets. Were they "deeply divided" too?

Gee whiz, by that logic, how do I explain Saladin's brilliant defense against Richard the Lion Heart?

Give it a fricking break. Different war.

Your strategy is to throw so much obfuscation at the screen that nobody can possibly respond. Then when you get mud stomped, and can't provide an answer greater than a Michael Moore talking point (oh, wait, you said you don't like him. Too damn bad, you're stealing all of his points) change the subject, or bring up something even more esoteric.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top