Pick me a gun for this role.

[Kliegl]

I'm trying to think up a gun for a niche role, which is that of "vehicle stored carbine." Idea is that it needs to store small, yet be able to be accurate out to a couple hundred yards.

The AR system does not seem to lend itself to this role for two reasons: a short carbine barrel does not help the already not-overpowered 5.56x45 round any, nor can the AR buffer system fold nor truly collapse.

Cartridge choice seems to recommend the Soviet 7.62x39, or the 7.62x51/.308 Win. I am not horribly impressed by the accuracy of the AK round, but that might just be the AK itself, it might do better in a non AK platform.

.308 Winchester, on the other hand, is a more powerful round, and would be louder than the hammers of hell coming out of a short barreled, muzzle braked, rifle.

This thing doesn't have to be particularly light, but mainly store small, pack the proverbial can of butt whup, and be accurate out to decent range.

So far, my list:

1. Socom 16 or M1A Scout in a Sage EBR Chassis with their telescoping stock.
2. Saiga or similar in 7.62x39 or .308, with folder stock.
3. HK91 clone with telescoping stock in .308
4. Ruger Mini 30 (7.62x39) with side folder.

What do you all think? And, my apologies if I kicked any AR guys' sacred cows.

 

[rondog]

Probably help if you'd mention what you intend to use/need it for.

 

[beatledog7]

Before I saw your short list I was thinking mini 30. That's what I'd choose for such a role.

 

[Kliegl]

Sorry, I figured that was in there/implied. Vehicle stored self defense weapon. I do a lot of road travel, and it would accompany the concealed pistol.

Edit: Yeah, Beetle, a lot of people like those.

 

[dldbrandon]

What about an M1 Carbine .30 cal with a folding stock?

 

[David E]

I think your parameters need adjusting.

The collapsible stocks you mention shave only 4" or do off the overall length. This is not enough to dismiss other full length designs.

A Para AR has a side folding stock, as does the SCAR 16 and 17.....but they run $2000 to $3000+. Most people find that high for a "truck gun," but is it too much for you?

Most people would be well served with a 30-30 lever action.

 

[Sam1911]

Self defense out to 200 meters? That's a somewhat problematic concept. Generally "self-defense" can be handled more than adequately at shotgun and/or pistol distances. Beyond very close range shooting tends to become something else rather than self-defense.

But, assuming that there is a need to hit something at 200 meters, an 7.62x39 AK will do that perfectly well -- and does around the world every day.

Compactness of storage is a good idea, to a point, but you really can't access or fight with a rifle inside an automobile, so this is something that can be stored in a trunk or cargo area. Most carbines are plenty short enough for that without needing the most compact package conceivable.

I'd say a firearm intended to be stored in a vehicle needs to be first off inexpensive, as it's far more likely to be stolen than used for its intended purpose.

A WASR or other low-end AK would probably be my "car rifle" if I felt that I needed one.

 

[benzy2]

I honestly don't know what the purpose of the rifle would be. What do you need to shoot a couple hundred yards from your car? Is this a rifle that has to stay in the cabin or are you able to get to the trunk? It would seem if you could get to the trunk, that you could store basically any moderately compact rifle. I guess I miss the point.

 

[Kliegl]

Brandon, the M1 Carbine is a good choice.

David, possibly so. This is both a "what would I use it for" exercise, and a followup to a conversation that I had with a friend on another forum for what he would use in event of civil unrest to go pick up his spouse with an emphasis on being a good transition gun.

Sam, valid points. 200 m was an arbitrary number, but, with the prevalence of the "flash mob" that is occurring in more metro areas, and the adage that a handgun is simply what you fight your way to a long gun with, I'm trying to look at a good long gun that I could consider.

Also, should have mentioned this earlier, but I drive a mid size single cab pickup, and would hypothetically store this thing behind the passenger seat in front of the back wall of the cab.

Edit for Benzy: Pickup truck, no trunk. Also, I just picked 200 yards, what I should have said was medium range / against multiple people.

 

[wlewisiii]

.30-30 lever action carbine would be my suggestion as well. Cheap, reliable, accurate & ballistically sufficient to the task at hand.

 

[USSR]

 

[Ro1911]

Ok this might not get you out to two hundred meters, but it would be small, compact, and you could get rid of your other pistol










If you did this with a 10mm glock you would have a weapon good to at least a 100 meters maybe even 200 but that would be pushing it. And all NFA rules would apply.

 

[huntershooter]

Agree with above; not a "tactical", or currently trendy idea, but the '94 Winchester, or Marlin lever in .30/30 would be hard to beat in this role.
Back in "the day", Jeff Cooper was a proponent of the mod. '94 as a "Patrol Rifle"-which rode in the trunk until needed.

 

[Abel]

I would find a beater Marlin 336 in 30-30 and have the barrel cut to 16.5". 200 yards? All friggin' day.

 

[klutchless]

Sks, ak47 ,rem700 varmit, sporterized mosin nagant ,308 handi rifle,reduce range to 100 yards 12 or 20ga slug out of whatever pump you perfer .I like my old beater enfield to shoot wild dogs and coyotes stays in the truck some of the time.You don't need a ar 15 but the description provided an ar fits the role very well.you can also remove some of the seat and build a gun box to fit inside the seat so when the seat flips forward the gun is right there .Oh yeah marlin scout stainless steel 45/70.

 

[Ro1911]

I'd have to second the Lee Enfield also I love that gun, you can get a good shooter for under $300 and it's kind of an everything rifle.

It at one time or another has shot everything that can be shot on this planet from people to elepants, it's defintely got the extra range you wanted.

 

[Zach S]

IMO, a vehicle carbine really only serves one purpose: peace of mind. The odds of needing it are slim, and the odds of getting to it if you need it are even slimmer...

That said, as someone who prefers AR15s, my vehicle carbine is a converted 7.62 Saiga with a Tapco sidefolder. I don't like the stock, feels too flimsy IMO. I think I may try to cut/grind/modify a fixed stock to fit an ACE folding mechanism, to get the best of both worlds (tough folding stock, comfortable cheek weld). Similar to a Bulgarian sidefolder.

You can buy new Arsenal AKs with a steel Bulgarian sidefolder, or a similar poly stock, but I think they're pricey.

I considered a Mini-30 a long time ago, but decided against it due to the magazines. Unless something has changed in the past few years, Ruger doesn't make 20s or 30s, and aftermarket mags can be hit or miss. I didn't see the point in buying a rifle that would rival the AK in terms of accuracy and reliability, with magazines that weren't as readily available as the AK.

 

[tarosean]

This thing doesn't have to be particularly light, but mainly store small, pack the proverbial can of butt whup, and be accurate out to decent range.

Henry's "Mare Leg" in .45 LC

 

[MistWolf]

Kliegl,

You can't kick any "AR Sacred Cows" by passing myth as fact. If you don't want an AR, simply say so. Credibility is lost when stating the 30 Carbine is a good choice and the more powerful 5.56x45 is not. Also, the terminal effectiveness of the FMJ 5.56 is superior to the FMJ 7.62x39. A 16" AR with a collapsing stock will fill the role as described.

If you want a compact truck gun that is quick to deploy, powerful, reliable and minute of badguy out to a couple hundred yards and isn't an AR, look into a Para FAL. One with an 18" barrel and a Belgian muzzle brake is just what you're looking for. The HK/PTR-91 is also a good choice, but it's collapsing stock is not as useful. The EBR M14 is expensive and excessively heavy

 

[Rexster]

With the understanding that legal self-defense rarely gets past pistol/shotgun range, my rifle for this niche is a 16"-barreled Mini-14 with a Sage International stock that is a downsized version of their EBR stock for the M14, except that it has the AR15-style rear end of the stock. I could get a side-folding adaptor, but that would make for a very fat package, which bothers me more than length.

In actual practice, I am going to use a shotgun or a handgun, because I have a badge that has rules attached to it, that apply 24/7/365. There are quite good folding stocks for shotguns, though I usually keep a traditional stock in place. Certain slugs will do amazing things to auto bodies.

In a perfect world, with me setting the rules, with an unlimited budget: DSA Para folder with 18" barrel, times two. One for training/spare, and one to be clean and ready.

Another option, available to me, is our several lever-action rifles in .357 Mag, .30-30, and .308 Winchester. While these do not have collapsible or folding stocks, their slimness is handy. I can lay a slim long gun at the bottom of either front door of my commuter car.

 

[fragout]

I believe that your set of parameters were good from your initial post, and wouldn't change a thing personally.

Your process of elimination so far is spot on, and would suggest that you stick to your parameters and stay with magazine fed carbines/rifles that are chambered in 7.62x39mm and 7.62x51mm.....

Since the M1A Scout/Socom made your list, there is really no reason to ask what the budget for this rifle will be.....so....moving on.......

Here is a few questions to ask yourself.


*Personal preference: Have you any firsthand experience with any of the rifles on your list? If so, which rifle felt right in your hands while shooting, reloading, etc....? ( Examples: charging handle, sights, safety, etc...) Did any feel like an out of place club in your mitts?

*Compactness: How compact are you gonna need it to be?




Note: My preference goes towards the std USGI synthetic M14 stocks along with 18 to 18.5in bbls, vs the Sage stock. For the niche spot of "truck gun", it's the WASR10/63 folder. It replaced the M1 Carbine in this role, and the biggest reason for the replacement was that of cheaper ammo, as well as the WASR being quite a bit less in cost vs the M1 Carbine.
This example will meet your accuracy/range requirements easily (provided the shooter does his part), and is just as reliable as the more expensive versions out there. Chrome lined bbl, and also accepts the typical 30rd mags that are reliable and cost effective.

Good luck with your decision.

11B

 

[Robert]

And, my apologies if I kicked any AR guys' sacred cows.

Not my money getting spent so kick away.

But if it were my money I'd get an AR carbine, and if I were worried that 5.56 won't do the job, which I am not, then I'd get it in 6.8 or one of the myriad of other calibers they come in.

But of the rifles on your list I'd vote for the Mini 30.

 

[jmr40]

A 16" barreled AR with collapsing stock is your answer. The 5.56 has plenty of punch at 200 yards for you needs. It is when ranges go beyond 300 yards that the shorter barrel will suffer. No need to try to re-invent the wheel. The answer is right in front of you.

 

[Averageman]

Cartridge choice seems to recommend the Soviet 7.62x39, or the 7.62x51/.308 Win. I am not horribly impressed by the accuracy of the AK round, but that might just be the AK itself, it might do better in a non AK platform.

Most of the accuracy problems associated with the AK come from cheap imported AK's that are cobbled together from kits with questionable skills.
You might be very happy with one built or modified by some of the better AK 'smiths here in the States.
I have found several good ones and midified one to make quite the truck/trunk gun.
I would reccomend you do a bit of research if it interests you, you might be pleasently surprised.
Thanks
A/M

 

[Ignition Override]

Sam1911 said it first about the range.
Do we subconsciously remember bad guys opening fire in western movies, shooting from 100 yards (+), due to the open western landscape,
or is our perception strongly influenced by war movies?

A Russian or Norinco SKS will cost much less than an almost-new Mini 30, and with the money saved, you can install a rear aperture from Tech Sights and still might be able to buy 300-500 rds. of jhp ammo.