Placing blame

[Vern Humphrey]

If you've ever been at sea, you might have had sobering thoughts about your life jacket -- being afloat in the middle of the ocean depending on a life jacket is not exactly the best thing that could happen to you.

But only a fool would make a rule that ships are not permitted to carry life jackets.

 

[elChupacabra!]

In this alternative reality - who do you blame?

Cho and Cho alone.

In your alternate reality, at least the choice was available to the students to arm themselves. If you wanted to "blame" them for chosing to not carry, you could... but that would be terribly heartless. They have already paid the price for not doing so.

 

[rainbowbob]

In answer to my own question about an alternative reality (as well as the actual reality) - I blame Cho - and I blame the mental health system that ordered this obviously dangerous, paranoid, psychotic young man to get treatment. And then did absolutely nothing to enforce that order and ensure that he did.

I realize I am repeatedly banging a different drum here. Maybe I'm completely off topic. But where is the outrage for that?

Involuntary psychiatric treatment for those among us that are dangerously psychotic and refuse treatment would do more to prevent these tragedies than any of the other proposed solutions put together (including campus CCW which I support 100%).

Had Cho received appropriate treatment, these deaths might have been prevented - and the prospect of some courageous student or instructor having to put their life on the line would have been unnecessary.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Rainbowbob -

You make a good point. When I was 15, I was involved in a similar shooting at my church, Wedgwood Baptist in Fort Worth, TX (September 15, 1999... most people who knew it happened have forgotten, but I haven't yet).

A man named Larry Gene Ashbrook entered my church, very angry about a number of things, and shot up a See You At the Pole youth rally I was attending for about 5-8 minutes (hard to tell, perception of the passage of time goes immediately under that much stress, or did for me at least...). He shot a total of 14 people, killing 7 of them, before he took his own life.

Larry Gene Ashbrook was probably a paranoid schizophrenic and needed help. If someone had cared enough to get him that help - and if it could have been administered to him - things might have gone very differently that Wednesday evening.

Even if someone in the sanctuary had been armed - and most of us there were teenagers - he still would have killed several people before he made it there. Many of his victims were standing just inside the south entrance, in the foyer - I think he shot 3 people there. He came in smoking a cigarette, was asked by the custodian to put it out, and he opened up, just like that.

Being armed would have changed things... but him getting the help he needed would have changed them more.

 

[FourTeeFive]

The campus administrators ACTIVELY petitioned the VA legislature to ban CCW on campus a year before the shooting.

That point is lost in the poster. I personally think the message will be lost to the general public. It works for us here, but for the non-gun oriented person they won't really get what happened and why it happened.

 

[GingerGuy]

The tally up to now is as follows…

45…Support the poster.
8….Against the poster.
15…Unknown, various comments.


Comments of note…

The campus administrators ACTIVELY petitioned the VA legislature to ban CCW on campus a year before the shooting.

The purpose of this graphic is to scare college administrators into doing the right thing.

But only a fool would make a rule that ships are not permitted to carry life jackets.

Someone with money , do this Poster on a Bill Board, and oh please, let there be a Bill Board that is viewable from Admins offices at VT.

I am fed up with Insurance Companies dictating what Schools , Businesses and whomever else does what.

One does not hear of Evil going to a Police Station and shooting up the joint.

------------------

…is likely to offend people, and potentially make them dismiss our position on the issue.

it's too bloody/graphic.

 

[rainbowbob]

Larry Gene Ashbrook was probably a paranoid schizophrenic and needed help. If someone had cared enough to get him that help - and if it could have been administered to him - things might have gone very differently that Wednesday evening.

elChupacabra!:
Amen, brother. I am so sorry for the terrible losses to your church family and for the unforgettable trauma you have suffered. Thank you for sharing your story and the insights you have gained from it.

 

[elChupacabra!]

rainbowbob,

Thanks for the kind words. Time heals all sorts of wounds, although some things you always carry with you in one form or another.

I will tell you this - my experience there has made me the most pro-RKBA person I know, as I learned at a relatively young age that no matter what else happens, in the end, at the moment of truth, YOU are the only one you can count on to defend yourself against aggression.

I know it sounds crazy to think you should carry a gun with you into church. We would also like to think of our classrooms as safe places - I understand that desire.

But be assured - there are no safe places that aren't made so by the promise of explosive, deadly force against the threat of violence.

People need to be reminded of this, as most continue to live under the false assumption that evil will never knock on their door. I appreciate the poster.

 

[rainbowbob]

I know it sounds crazy to think you should carry a gun with you into church.

I suspect that to most of us here, it doesn't sound crazy at all.

 

[Green Lantern]

Being as I hold similar sentiments to those expressed by the poster - count me as another that likes it "as is."

 

[elChupacabra!]

I suspect that to most of us here, it doesn't sound crazy at all.

THAT is good to hear... it's good to be in like-minded company for a change

 

[Nolo]

I know it sounds crazy to think you should carry a gun with you into church.

One of the art projects (Ha! Like I do any art any more...) I've had in the back of my head for a long time is one where a militiaman, scary-looking rifle slung over his back, is kneeling at the altar.
I'm not sure how the image would flesh itself out, but I think it'd be really powerful.

 

[Oana]

"Trying" to do the right thing is not justification for doing the wrong thing.

Certainly not! Which is why I said that I might still say the same thing, just not quite so accusatorily. (Is that a word? ) There's a chance that the wording would push people away from our real message.

Those who hold authority also bear responsibility. Their choices have consequences. When those consequences include the loss of innocent life they SHOULD be accused of wrongdoing. They SHOULD be held responsible. They should have their personal responsibility for the shedding of innocent blood driven home to them and to all observers in a way that makes it impossible for anyone to ever again claim ignorance and good intentions in the same situation.

Can't say that I argue with any of that! However, they're not directly responsible. The only person ultimately responsible is the murderer, and I can't say what would have happened even if they'd allowed CCW. Therefore, I'm not going to put them on the same plane as someone who walked in and cold-bloodedly killed people. But, I do believe they bear some responsibility, to be sure.

Off topic - are you the same 3KillerBs that sometimes comments over at DressADay?

In the unfortunate absence of any one of those elements (either courage, luck, or skill) - the outcome might have been pretty much the same as it actually was.

In this alternative reality - who do you blame?

I blame the murderer (not saying his name). I don't have a crystal ball, so I don't know what would've happened. But at least if they'd allowed CCW, they would've had a chance. And that's all we're asking for.

And as for your other comments - I guess the reason I'm not so up in arms about the mental health issue (at least, right now - not saying it *isn't* an issue) is because there are always going to be nutcases out there. There are some who will slip through the cracks, whether the cracks are huge or small. We've got to allow people the chance to protect themselves. And then, maybe even psychotic nutcases will think twice before trying to commit mass murder.

 

[Catherine]

Vern H.,

Good post about the 'life jackets' and being out at sea. Thank you!

Catherine

 

[scrat]

i dont know oleg a little too graphic this time. the picture catches your eyes and you really dont read much

 

[3KillerBs]

Quote:

Those who hold authority also bear responsibility. Their choices have consequences. When those consequences include the loss of innocent life they SHOULD be accused of wrongdoing. They SHOULD be held responsible. They should have their personal responsibility for the shedding of innocent blood driven home to them and to all observers in a way that makes it impossible for anyone to ever again claim ignorance and good intentions in the same situation.

Can't say that I argue with any of that! However, they're not directly responsible. The only person ultimately responsible is the murderer, and I can't say what would have happened even if they'd allowed CCW. Therefore, I'm not going to put them on the same plane as someone who walked in and cold-bloodedly killed people. But, I do believe they bear some responsibility, to be sure.

Off topic - are you the same 3KillerBs that sometimes comments over at DressADay?

Naturally, the shooter bears the prime responsibility, but I believe that the people who set up the circumstances that facilitated the shooting MUST be FORCED to acknowledge their responsibility as a type of accessory before the fact and that they should be punished for their wrongdoing despite the fact that they did wrong while meaning to do right.

I'm a strong believer in the idea that rights go with responsibility and that the privileges of authority go with an active duty and obligation to do right with that authority. I'm not big on excuses and "sorry" doesn't fix anything -- especially if the situation you are being "sorry" about was avoidable if you'd exercised due diligence about your responsibilities.

And yes, I am the same 3KillerBs.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Sure, it might seem a bit....dramatic.

The thing is, it is 100% true. The administrators of VT do indeed have blood on their hands, as illustrated:

Gun bill gets shot down by panel (From last legislative session '06)
http://www.roanoke.com/news/roanoke/wb/wb/xp-50658

HB 1572, which would have allowed handguns on college campuses, died in subcommittee.

Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker was happy to hear the bill was defeated. "I'm sure the university community is appreciative of the General Assembly's actions because this will help parents, students, faculty and visitors feel safe on our campus."

 

[rainbowbob]

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

My primary concern with Oleg's poster is whether it helps - or hurts - the cause of campus CCW. My initial opinion was that it hurts the cause if it alienates the target of the indictment. The ones in power.

It's beginning to dawn on me that they aren't the ones that matter. It won't help the current administration see the error of their way. The board that approved the ban will not be moved by this poster.

But you know...maybe some of the students will be. And eventually some of them may hold the power to change things.

 

[cpaspr]

rainbowbob -
But you know...maybe some of the students will be. And eventually some of them may hold the power to change things.

And "eventually" can happen sooner rather than later. If students refuse to attend schools that force them to be disarmed in large enough numbers, and let the admins know exactly why they won't be attending that particular school, the message will get across.

 

[rainbowbob]

If students refuse to attend schools that force them to be disarmed in large enough numbers...

That is true. But we have to remember that CCW holders are a small minority of the adult population - and an even smaller percentage of the student population. So I don't think that the large numbers required to effect these changes are there...yet.

As an example, I checked the numbers in my state (WA) and discovered that only 5% of people over the age of 18 hold a concealed pistol license. Considering that you can't get a license until you are 21, and that many (most?) students are under 21, the percentage of students with a CPL would be much smaller.

 

[KnightHawk67]

I think it boils down to this: the administration refuses to allow someone the chance of being in the right place at the right time & doing the right thing.

I mean, isn't that why we all want the right to defend ourselves?

 

[KnightHawk67]

Oh, and I liked the graphic. A little too wordy, but the graphic was appropriately shocking.

 

[george29]

Most of the blame goes to the killer in any case.

I don't blame the mentally ill for being ill, I blame the mentally healthy for refusing to accept the truth/reality as it is. For a more complete picture and proof of my words please read the following quote.

In June, Tech's governing board approved a violence prevention policy reiterating its ban on students or employees carrying guns and prohibiting visitors from bringing them into campus facilities.

The following cartoon is NOT posted in humor! It relects the truth.

 

[rainbowbob]

I don't blame the mentally ill for being ill, I blame the mentally healthy for refusing to accept the truth/reality as it is.

george29:
Mental illness can be defined in part as the inability to determine the difference between reality and delusion. A person with a severe mental illness CAN'T tell the difference. Therefore, they can't be blamed for not accepting truth/reality any more than they can be blamed for being ill.

The VT administrators presumably are not mentally ill and CAN tell the difference between reality and delusion. Therefore, they can be blamed for not accepting the truth/reality.

I don't know that his indicts them as culpable for the murders - but it does indict them as incompetent fools bound by their own ideological agenda.

 

[george29]

Gee Bob, I thought that's what I said in my own way!