Police Armament

[Euclidean]

If I'm calling 911, I personally want them to come strapped, because it's something baaaaad.

LEOs are often not given the kind of equipment they should probably have, and if they want to supply their own, God bless 'em, because they don't make nearly enough money to be expected to.

 

[kd7nqb]

So I got a question here, I agree with the be prepared mindset but why 2 rifles?

 

[WESTTX357]

2 Rifles for because each rifle is for different kind of job ...........M4 and other semi automatics can be used for firing suppression rounds or keep there heads down rounds as we use to call them and the Remington 308 with scope for those long distance reach out and touch some one shots.

 

[X-Rap]

Jeff I,m not complaining about you or the other deputy ccso906 who if as you say are operating under a different doctrine than pre columbine for example. I understand needing to be prepared especialy in rural patrol countys were your spread thin and far from back up.I live in such a place and would be happy to have either of you on duty here. My worry is that all the equipment is wasted because an officers hands are tied and he has to wait for a tac squad or unifom back up when he is equiped to act on his own.If this is the case then lets go a little less on equipment and rigs and put two men in a car.As far as bitching if you didn't have something I'll bet we could share and get the job done.

 

[Hoploholic]

Militarization of local police forces really bothers me. All a rural cop needs is some OC and and a good side arm. They are not shock troops, they are not infantry, they are not all special weapons and tactics and they are not occupying forces...yet. Or are they?

Mind you, I am not trying to detract from the fine men and women who defend the peace, but rather the trend of local and state governments trying to turn their police forces into standing armies. There is only use for such forces, and your Constitutional rights dont factor into the equation.

 

[clt46910]

I think the thing that has to be considered is that this is a country officer that does not have lots of backup officers available to him. Just him and maybe another officer or two if he is lucky.

I would feel it would be better he be equipped then not.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

carpenter is what i am

i have 3 circular saws and 6 hammers on my truck.And none of that lumber is gonna hurt me or anyone else.

 

[swampgator]

Militarization of local police forces really bothers me. All a rural cop needs is some OC and and a good side arm. They are not shock troops, they are not infantry, they are not all special weapons and tactics and they are not occupying forces...yet. Or are they?

Are you a rural deputy? If you were, would feel well equiped with just a side arm and OC?

Back in the good old days (1970s) Dad went out every night with a 19 Smith, six rounds in a dump pouch, and 6 cell Everready. Oh yeah, a vest was something that came with a three piece suit back then.

In a county with a major university and a population of 70K. How many deputies on a shift? 2! Not uncommon for him to have to call out for back up and wait 35-45 minutes from his agency or maybe, if he was lucky, a little less from a surrounding county or the city depending on where he was. Do you think he'd minded a little more gear?

Do you think that real, violent crime doesn't happen in a rural community? Or do only big city cops get to have better equipment?

I'll let everyone in on a little secret. When it comes to the "militarization" of law enforcement it's not what the officers are carrying in their vehicle so much as their mindset. If the deputy is a gung-ho type personality he's going approach his job and its authority much different than someone who is more laid back. In theory they'll both have the same gear.

Don't get me wrong I know there's been enough abuse of Homeland Security funding but given the context of ARTiger's original post I don't see anything wrong with the equipment this fellow is carrying.

 

[ALACHARGER]

Police Arms

I'm a municipal Chief of Police, with 4 sworn officers working for me. Each of them has a AR-15 rifle with three mags, an 870 shotgun, and a Glock 22 with 4 magazines issued to them. They all carry them in the car with them, and qualify with each weapon at least twice annually.

I know of no officers, or departments that have a "militarization" agenda. I don't want my officers affecting any type of military role. We are law enforcement officers, sworn to uphold the law and protect the citizenry of the municipality we work for. We don't occupy property, we're not infantry. Other than a couple of idiotic movies, I ain't never seen cops march in formation. Heck, at my department we're even getting away from the "military uniform" look. But, when the feces hits the ocillating air movement device, I don't want to be depending on a pistol when I could have a long gun, and neither does anyone else with any sense. I want the best tools available to get me through the situation and home to my family. A handgun is a last ditch weapon, carried strictly because of it's convenience and portability.

 

[swampgator]

Well said sir, well said.

 

[RNB65]

All a rural cop needs is some OC and and a good side arm.

THR forum rules say to attack the argument, not the arguer. So I'll politely say that the above quote is the dumbest thing I've read on THR in a while.

No, I'm not a rural cop/deputy. But I grew up in a very rural area and I know real well what kind of trash you can run into out there. Billy Bob just beat the living crap out of his wife, he's hiding just inside the front door with his 30-06 deer rifle, and the nearest backup is 30 minutes away and you really think that a side arm and OC is all an officer needs?

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Another thing to remember is that many rural officers, county and Highway patrol can have their headquarters 30 to 40 miles from their patrol area and only go to headquarters once a week or even longer. So their car is their office and they have everything they may need for that time in it. Also in states that have bad winter weather your back up may go from 45minutes away to several hours.

If this is the case then lets go a little less on equipment and rigs and put two men in a car. A car and all the equipment mentioned wont even come close to the cost of another officer.

Also many times the equipment is used for other reasons, I know quite a few rural officers who have used their rifles to put down mean dogs (no animal control in rural areas) to put down injured live stock for the owners. In my area this past year we had a wild animal show as well as a big cat refuge and local law enforcement were called in take a look and they decided that they would all carry their 308. in their cars because none of them wanted to take on a 400lb tiger or 800lb bear with a handgun or even a AR-15.

So don't knock what they carry until you realize what they may face.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

When my dad was on the sherriff's department many years ago, 1960 or so he had a Colt Monitor with a bandolier of magazines in the trunk and a shotgun in a rack upfront and a 1911 with 5 magazines on his person and many of the officers carried 30/30's or springfield rifles in the trunks, because sometime the only back up, was the rifle in the trunk and being rural, the odds of the potential BG having a long arm is much greater than in an urban area, where knives and hand guns or some form of improvised weapon may be encountered.

Give them the proper equipment to do the job, I would rather spend a little bit of money for a rifle, then spend alot of money to train another officer to take the place of the first one, because they didn't have a rifle when they needed one.

 

[raz-0]

Frankly, the only thing that concerns me is if the training is going along with the gear. Giving someone tools they don't know how to use is a bad idea.

More gear than you need can be a good idea. Especially if you encounter a situation that requires some of the local LEOs to put on their SWAT hat fast, and they can just come meet you directly rather than go fetch gear.

The root of the problem is that police departments keep getting more funds, but they are one time money. Which means gear or training rather than extra people. Mostly it means gear because training means you have even LESS people day to day than you previously did before getting more money.

 

[ARTiger]

Personally, I'm glad he's got the equipment for whatever comes up. We got into the gun discussion because he deer hunts with a Remington 700 in .270 - we have the same gun, scope etc. He was saying that he thought the .308 his department issued was a bit more accurate.

Now I've helped this guy field dress a few deer where he basically shot the heart out at 300+ yards and if he likes the .308 I was interested. The reason for all the ammo is he offices from a shared state game & fish station about 20 miles from his department headquarters and has to take all his stuff with him. He also backs them up on occasion and helps with another county's area as well. He's pretty much the only LEO (other than the game & fish guys) for 15 miles around except for a couple of small town PD folks.

Also, you could count on most folks he runs into being armed in this area. Including some occasional meth and pot operations out in the woods plus some camo wearing non-hunters who like to shoot at most anything.

I was just surprised (pleasantly at that) at all the stuff he had. He's also the most even-keeled dude you'll ever meet - an ex-Marine and currently in the National Guard. Knowing his skills with the deer gun and with his military training, I would think he can use everything better than most.

In short, I think the county gets their $28K a year worth (isn't that ridiculous) from my deputy friend. I know I wouldn't do what he does for double that.

 

[sparky2726]

Sidearm and OC????????

Let me ask you this.

You want to go up against a BG with a Remington 700 in 7mm with only a sidearm and OC??????????? If you say yes, I will see you at your funeral.

It happened here less than a month ago.

Sparky

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

I don't think he's over-armed as long as he qualified with all those weapons. Although a good .308 like a FAL or an AR-10 might replace both the Rem 700 and the AR if he's good enough to shoot a semi auto .308 as fast as a .223. I read somewhere that most SWAT sniper shots take place at 100 yards or less (although I admit, living in a rural area if someone was shooting at me 400 yards away I'd want something that can return fire accurately).
I agree with Jeff that there isn't much a shotgun can do that an AR can't aside from less-lethal rounds which I would not use if I was alone. Not sure about all the tacticool bolt-on doo-dads though. I guess people feel like they need to fill up their picatinny rails. I can understand a weapon light, possibly a laser, and a good optic.
NOW...all that said, you boys in blue, keep in mind we here think alike. So next time you pull over someone otherwise innocent who has a pistol, AR, a shotgun, and a bolt action, don't assume he's a terrorist and don't tell the media he had an "arsenal of weapons"

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Kinder, Gentler . . .

In conversations I've had with LEOs here in Western Nevada (y'all kin say "Northern" iffen ya want) I've found that the addition of rifles -- of any sort -- is a fairly recent development.

They found that BGs were showing up with stuff that out-ranged a sidearm.

After a couple of incidents, they purchased half a dozen rifles (we're talking basically M4s here), and those are handed out by shifts. The new rules allow units to carry their own (personally purchased) rifles, but the department only has a few.

Reno may have deeper pockets there, but locally there just aren't enough to go around.

We don't have a whole lot of violent confrontation going on up here, but the occasional Basque separatist or arsenic junkie will decide he's just GOT to have a stand-off with law enforcement.

Oh, and recently we had some guy shoot a judge, in his office, through the window glass with a .308 rifle (made headlines and stuff nationwide).

Violent offenders are like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get.

 

[Hoploholic]

THR forum rules say to attack the argument, not the arguer. So I'll politely say that the above quote is the dumbest thing I've read on THR in a while.

No, I'm not a rural cop/deputy. But I grew up in a very rural area and I know real well what kind of trash you can run into out there. Billy Bob just beat the living crap out of his wife, he's hiding just inside the front door with his 30-06 deer rifle, and the nearest backup is 30 minutes away and you really think that a side arm and OC is all an officer needs?

I will put this to you simply. Do I stutter? You may be willing to trade your essential liberties, but I am not. The police have no legal obligation to protect you or any indivdual. Such being the case, why would they need military arms? Simple answer is they don't.

For your situation the correct response would be to get on the magical device known as a radio and dispatch SWAT to the scene. A prep with a high powered rifle and a poorly trained for the situation beat cop with an assault weapon is a nasty bio clean up waiting to happen.

Your insults are not even slighty veiled. Attack as you will, I can take whatever you have, dish it right back out and never get cross. To keep others from getting bored though I will just choose to ignore crassness.

I'm a municipal Chief of Police, with 4 sworn officers working for me. Each of them has a AR-15 rifle with three mags, an 870 shotgun, and a Glock 22 with 4 magazines issued to them. They all carry them in the car with them, and qualify with each weapon at least twice annually.

I know of no officers, or departments that have a "militarization" agenda. I don't want my officers affecting any type of military role. We are law enforcement officers, sworn to uphold the law and protect the citizenry of the municipality we work for. We don't occupy property, we're not infantry. Other than a couple of idiotic movies, I ain't never seen cops march in formation. Heck, at my department we're even getting away from the "military uniform" look. But, when the feces hits the ocillating air movement device, I don't want to be depending on a pistol when I could have a long gun, and neither does anyone else with any sense. I want the best tools available to get me through the situation and home to my family. A handgun is a last ditch weapon, carried strictly because of it's convenience and portability.

Care to explain just how much training your officers receive for poop hitting the fan scenerios? How many hours does your average officer receive annually for say, hostage negotionation, force continuum, urban combat, close quaters battle, breeching, ect?

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that your officers are oath sworn the protect the individual citizens of your municipality?

Your officers are mere citizens that have been entrusted to enforce law. They are not SHTF shock troops that will keep your little piece of America safe from the envading hordes.

 

[SAG0282]

I'd ditch the .357SIG GLOCK for a G20, and ditch both rifles for a Springer M1A.

 

[JLStorm]

Well its about time! I do some work for a private company and we have some firearms requirements, but few restrictions. I always feel a little guilty that we have better weapons and generally speaking more firepower than the local cops, especially for carry weapons. The cops around here I think are restricted to a 9mm glock or older smith and wesson, they envey my 45 hk. Tax payer money or not, its about time they get an upgrade!

 

[ksnecktieman]

A County cop? He is all there is. He needs tools to do his job. He NEEDS one of everything, and a back up.

Sidearm, and four mags, he finds a car in a creek with children inside. When he returns to his vehicle, he should change mags for a set that did not get immersed.

Hi finds two or three coyotes, or wild dogs with a child up a tree? 870 time. no hesitation.

He finds a child barricaded or out of reach of a bear or a big cat? Big rifle time.

He finds either situation above at night? The military rifle with the mounted light or night optics.

I personally approve of him being armed for any eventuality. As you can see, even without criminals, he has a NEED for the proper tools.

As our opponents are always parroting, "It is for the CHILDREN"

 

[ALACHARGER]

Care to explain just how much training your officers receive for poop hitting the fan scenerios? How many hours does your average officer receive annually for say, hostage negotionation, force continuum, urban combat, close quaters battle, breeching, ect?

Are you going to sit there with a straight face and tell us that your officers are oath sworn the protect the individual citizens of your municipality?

Your officers are mere citizens that have been entrusted to enforce law. They are not SHTF shock troops that will keep your little piece of America safe from the envading hordes.

I'll be glad to expound on this. My officers receive as much training as I can afford in my training budget. None of them are hostage negotiators....so no training there. They either control the perimiter of the situation and wait until a SWAT team arrives, or (in the case of an active shooter) make entry and neutralize the offender. Force continuum is a full day course in the basic academy, and at least two training sessions a year refresh them on the principles. Urban combat, what part of "we're not soldiers" did you miss? Same for close quarters battle and breeching.

My officers are sworn to uphold the Constitution of the United States of America, the Constitution of the State of Alabama, and the laws and ordinances of the United States of America, the State of Alabama and the Town of XXXXX. They are sworn to protect the citizens of the same. Individual citizens...nope, Supreme court ruling is that law enforcement is not responsible for individual citizens, just the public at large.

As for the last part of the above quoted statement..."mere citizens that have been entrusted to enforce law"...I disagree. Police officers do have hundreds of hours of training in their specialized tactics (NO, I'm not talking SWAT). A lot of it is available to the general public, but is rarely taken advantage of. And we are held to a higher standard because of the training.

I do agree that my officers are not "shock troops", and I do not want "shock troops" working for me. I'm not worried about "invading hordes", I'm worried about school shootings, domestic violence gone really, really bad, highway snipers, workplace violence, and all the other home grown terror we've already got. The weapons my officers (and most officers, countrywide) are armed with are not cutting edge technology, but tried and true systems that are 40+ years old.

Personally, let me say, I enjoy a good debate. You have made several valid points in your arguments, and I do appreciate the opportunity to respond. Thank you, Sir!!!

 

[X-Rap]

Chief
The thing I most respect and hope that it has been adopted in general is the active shooter responce. If this is the case an officer needs to have equipment to be effective and prevail. Conversely with a load of arms and ammo such as is carried today is it a concern in your community that an officer is overwelmed on a call and the weapons are taken and used against backup officers. Also I see most patrol vehicles here parked at officers homes while not on duty what is the danger of breakin on the street.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

funny

what I find a lil disturbing is that there are some who feel that a cop should be armed less well than i'm allowed to be. Its hard to fathom what kinda thinking would make that happen or what kinda "issues " they are indicative of. I remember a news show way back in the late 60's where a camera was up on a roof near fort apache in the bronx. It showed cops rolling out # to a car one had an ak on the back deck. I do really like the post that said "I want en to carry everything they can qualify with".Me too. When I holler for help I don't want a repeat of the north hollywood shootout where cops and civilians were pinned down fubar. Heck if you read this forum there are some here who illustrate most succintly why the cops need more firepower than traditionally they used to. To me its a real crime when a cop is hurt cause some nut can outgun him. and often its not just the cop hurt. I don't understand the kinda thinking that would want to send anyone into harms way with one hand behind their back. If its because they had a bad experince with some cop or never got over getting a ticket they are falling into the rut the antis use. One bad cop/gunowner and they want to hobble them all.
Some israeli once said I fought my enemy and I became my enemy.