Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
MrArcheson, do you know what "stereotype" means?
SWAT team called in for a man with 200 LEGAL guns.. Yes- the SWAT was called in...
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JohnBT
Member
"...Citizen Unit 50375124's joy at seeing the 3rd ACR roll down his street."
Sorry, that's over my head. Are you referring to something in the original article posted on this thread or quoting from lit class?
I'm still amazed that so many members are upset that the police surrounded the mortgage company's house at the mortgage company's request.
A bunch of folks are still talking like the man referred to in the article still lived there when the police were called in.
Sheesh. Later y'all. The out and out overreacting is embarrassing.
John
Sorry, that's over my head. Are you referring to something in the original article posted on this thread or quoting from lit class?
I'm still amazed that so many members are upset that the police surrounded the mortgage company's house at the mortgage company's request.
A bunch of folks are still talking like the man referred to in the article still lived there when the police were called in.
Sheesh. Later y'all. The out and out overreacting is embarrassing.
John
Tamara
Senior Member
JohnBT,
"3rd ACR" = Third Armored Cavalry Regiment
What I was commenting on was not the cops showing up to make sure everything was kosher, not even cops with big scary guns showing up to make sure everything was kosher, but the fact that Joe Sheeple seemed to be comforted by the sight of NINETY GUYS WITH SUBMACHINEGUNS, RIFLES, AND SHORT-BARELLED SHOTGUNS, PLUS A FRIGGIN' ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER deploying down his suburban street.
When I was growing up, that was how you could tell the difference between America and third-world banana republics run by guys in big, fancy hats: were there troops in the streets or not? Now, Joe Sheeple is HAPPY TO SEE THEM! What country is this, America or Costa Rica?
"3rd ACR" = Third Armored Cavalry Regiment
What I was commenting on was not the cops showing up to make sure everything was kosher, not even cops with big scary guns showing up to make sure everything was kosher, but the fact that Joe Sheeple seemed to be comforted by the sight of NINETY GUYS WITH SUBMACHINEGUNS, RIFLES, AND SHORT-BARELLED SHOTGUNS, PLUS A FRIGGIN' ARMORED PERSONNEL CARRIER deploying down his suburban street.
When I was growing up, that was how you could tell the difference between America and third-world banana republics run by guys in big, fancy hats: were there troops in the streets or not? Now, Joe Sheeple is HAPPY TO SEE THEM! What country is this, America or Costa Rica?
GAMALOT
Member
I completely agree with Tamara
Tamara, You said it all and I could not agree more with your read.
Because I happen to be a law abiding ""CITIZEN"" who happens to work and enjoy the collecting of weapons is no reason for alarm. This attitude of, "He has too many guns and therefore must be some kind of a nut is way out of wack".
It is not what you collect or why you collect it but it is all about the respect you have for where you are and the freedoms you are afforded.
The vast majority of us, "COLLECTORS" pay our taxes and never do a dam thing to bring on the kind of HEAT witnessed here and I for one am appaled at the thought of my neighbors, who have not one bad thing to say about me, thinking it is COOL to have the GUSTAPO on my block because some DORK with a low life job saw my ART COLLECTION.
What ever happened to the concept of, "INOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" or, "THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS".
DO these jerks forget the basic premise that every right they enjoy, such as the free speech they have was won by GUNS and in fact will be maintained by them.
When they all end up in "HOLLYWOOD", I will gladly SHOOT MY TV.
Tamara, You said it all and I could not agree more with your read.
Because I happen to be a law abiding ""CITIZEN"" who happens to work and enjoy the collecting of weapons is no reason for alarm. This attitude of, "He has too many guns and therefore must be some kind of a nut is way out of wack".
It is not what you collect or why you collect it but it is all about the respect you have for where you are and the freedoms you are afforded.
The vast majority of us, "COLLECTORS" pay our taxes and never do a dam thing to bring on the kind of HEAT witnessed here and I for one am appaled at the thought of my neighbors, who have not one bad thing to say about me, thinking it is COOL to have the GUSTAPO on my block because some DORK with a low life job saw my ART COLLECTION.
What ever happened to the concept of, "INOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY" or, "THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS".
DO these jerks forget the basic premise that every right they enjoy, such as the free speech they have was won by GUNS and in fact will be maintained by them.
When they all end up in "HOLLYWOOD", I will gladly SHOOT MY TV.
Shweboner
Member
'Took them six hours to determine that? What a bunch of boneheads!
~Brain
Seminole
Member
Tamara wrote:
Woah, there, Tamara! Don't go insulting Costa Rica by comparing it to the U.S.! ;-)
While Costa Rica, as a Socialist Democratic Welfare State, certainly has its problems, one problem they don't have is troops in the streets since they don't have troops--the country has no military.
Another difference between the U.S. and Costa Rica is that the Costa Rican Libertarian Party (Movimiento Libertario) won just over 10% of the seats in the National Congress (6 out of 57 members) in the February 2002 elections.
Woah, there, Tamara! Don't go insulting Costa Rica by comparing it to the U.S.! ;-)
While Costa Rica, as a Socialist Democratic Welfare State, certainly has its problems, one problem they don't have is troops in the streets since they don't have troops--the country has no military.
Another difference between the U.S. and Costa Rica is that the Costa Rican Libertarian Party (Movimiento Libertario) won just over 10% of the seats in the National Congress (6 out of 57 members) in the February 2002 elections.
JohnBT
Member
Thanks for the explanation.
I've been to Costa Rica. Very nice country and wonderful people. I felt safer in both the capital and the countryside than I do in various parts of D.C., Baltimore and Richmond.
__________
Re: "It's a good thing the house was being repoed because..."
The house had already been repo'd. That's why the locks were changed 3 days before the incident. The doofus with the guns and grenades hadn't paid his bills and lost the house. The new owner's rep was the one who called the police because he thought someone had unlawfully entered the house.
The headline should have read "HOME OWNER CALLS IN POLICE TO SECURE THEIR PROPERTY" - but that wouldn't have been any fun to discuss.
To the people who actually read the article - hi there!
John
I've been to Costa Rica. Very nice country and wonderful people. I felt safer in both the capital and the countryside than I do in various parts of D.C., Baltimore and Richmond.
__________
Re: "It's a good thing the house was being repoed because..."
The house had already been repo'd. That's why the locks were changed 3 days before the incident. The doofus with the guns and grenades hadn't paid his bills and lost the house. The new owner's rep was the one who called the police because he thought someone had unlawfully entered the house.
The headline should have read "HOME OWNER CALLS IN POLICE TO SECURE THEIR PROPERTY" - but that wouldn't have been any fun to discuss.
To the people who actually read the article - hi there!
John
Not to dispute your contention that the bankers had proper court orders in hand before they changed the locks, but I think there's possibly more here than has been disclosed... specifically:
I'm wondering if the house was leined/seized as a direct result of the judgement related to the junk cars. I did a little research, and Hillsborough County Code enforcement (as well as Florida Association of Code Enforcement) has something of a history of racking up exorbitant penalties for code violations, as a pretext to seize property. One case where a guy was fined $1,250 per day because he had algae growing in his pool!
He may be a doofus (as you have judged), or he may have been making a property rights stand against code enforcement, and lost. Maybe he had all his earthly possessions stacked and boxed in the front room for moving out (likely scenario if you ask me)...regardless, calling out the swat team because the bank guys noticed "guns, ammo, (dummy) explosives, and canned goods" and a strange car, seems a little over the top. Unless you're comfortable with this latest example of demonizing gun owners, simply for the fact that they own guns?
Keith
Member
The whole thing is ridiculous. One phone call to ATF would have given them the info that the man in question had a class 3 license. Any police suprvisor who would call out SWAT rather than make a phone call ought to pay the bill for this fiasco.
Keith
Keith
El Rojo
Member
Why does it have to be a fiasco? Why couldn't it be an excellent training opportunity? This is what we use SWAT teams primarily for. Not for dynamic entries, not for combating terrorists, but securing the perimeter of a barricaded subject that might potential be armed and dangerous. No one got hurt, the cops did their jobs right, I don't see what all of the fuss is about. Sure you can get all upset that we have police that are capable of rolling out armored vehicles and laying seige to your home. That is understandable. But to get so upset about it and start going off the deep end about how there are armed troops in the steets. I don't see anything wrong with it. I am armed too. Now when these police forces start trying to oppress and kill us, then we will need to be concerned. Then you can have your chance to shoot them in the streets for the tyrannical totalitarian jack-booted thugs they are. Right now, they are just trying to serve the community and make sure everyone is alive at the end of the day.
The police are well armed now a days. What are you going to do about it? The only thing that should get anyone upset is that in places like the PRK they get all of the good toys and we don't. It isn't the cops fault. It is the legislatures fault. They make the rules.
The police are well armed now a days. What are you going to do about it? The only thing that should get anyone upset is that in places like the PRK they get all of the good toys and we don't. It isn't the cops fault. It is the legislatures fault. They make the rules.
Keith
Member
>>>>Why does it have to be a fiasco? Why couldn't it be an excellent training opportunity?<<<<
Why don't we have 50 or 100 armed men surround your house with loaded weapons for no reason? Another excellent training opportunity and no harm done as long as you, your wife and kids don't make any sudden or suspicious moves... Who could object?
Keith
Why don't we have 50 or 100 armed men surround your house with loaded weapons for no reason? Another excellent training opportunity and no harm done as long as you, your wife and kids don't make any sudden or suspicious moves... Who could object?
Keith
JohnBT
Member
hammer4nc-
If the former owner was current on his mortgage, and he wasn't, how did the mortgage holder get legal title and possession? -- You suggest that because of the fines owed to the government the mortgage company ends up with the house? Doesn't work that way here. If the locality is owed money then THEY are going to court to seize it and they're not going to give squat to the mortgage company until they get their money.
Meanwhile, the doofus lost his house and this thread is INACCURATELY TITLED.
In other words, I don't follow your logic at all.
John...I'm beginning to believe that THR is largely populated by folks with a high quotient of paranoia and anti-government leanings. And poor readers, too, who jump to conclusions. Jump hell, leap.
If the former owner was current on his mortgage, and he wasn't, how did the mortgage holder get legal title and possession? -- You suggest that because of the fines owed to the government the mortgage company ends up with the house? Doesn't work that way here. If the locality is owed money then THEY are going to court to seize it and they're not going to give squat to the mortgage company until they get their money.
Meanwhile, the doofus lost his house and this thread is INACCURATELY TITLED.
In other words, I don't follow your logic at all.
John...I'm beginning to believe that THR is largely populated by folks with a high quotient of paranoia and anti-government leanings. And poor readers, too, who jump to conclusions. Jump hell, leap.
geegee
Member
Now really, who's paranoid, J ohnBT ? Hey...those are mighty suspicious initials...
geegeeIf the guy who was the "owner" had fines levied against him, yet he had a mortgage on his property, why wouldn't the mortgage company get the house?
I mean, the county wouldn't seize the property from the lienholder. The answer would seem to be that either the house was being autioned, at which point the mortgage company either sold the house to pay the lien the county had against it, or just paid the county off outright.
I mean, the county wouldn't seize the property from the lienholder. The answer would seem to be that either the house was being autioned, at which point the mortgage company either sold the house to pay the lien the county had against it, or just paid the county off outright.
Drizzt
Member
Neighbors know little about man at center of standoff
published February 23, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NORTHDALE -- Who lives in the home at 4021 Braesgate Lane? The one that sheriff's deputies surrounded for a tense six hours on Monday?
Neighbors know little about the owner, Robert Walters.
They say Walters rarely comes outside before dark. If they happen to meet him while he's walking his dog on the sidewalk, he's usually not inclined to start a conversation.
"If I'm out walking or riding my bike in the late evenings and I see him I'll speak and say hello and he'll just grumble and not speak back," said neighbor Char Adams.
The quiet and reclusive man became the center of attention when deputies, believing he was inside, declared a standoff outside his home.
The drama unfolded after two bank officials involved in a foreclosure on the home told deputies they had seen a stockpile of guns, ammunition and canned goods in the unoccupied home on Feb. 14. When they returned on Monday, they saw a car parked in the driveway and called the Sheriff's Office.
Deputies evacuated about 15 homes and mobilized the SWAT team, the bomb squad and an armored tank. Agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives also were called to the Northdale neighborhood.
Through a loudspeaker, officers pleaded with Walters to answer the phone or come to the front door and talk to them. "We just want to check things out and make sure everything is okay."
But in the end, they discovered that Walters was not even home and that all the guns and ammunition had been legally obtained.
Robert Walters did not respond to interview requests.
His brother Phillip Walters described him as "a gun collector."
"We grew up hunting," he said.
Dozens of Northdale residents watched the spectacle from behind the police tape while they commented on Walters' unkept property and swapped stories about the rare occasions he is seen outside.
Court records show Chase Mortgage Services has moved to foreclose on his home for non-payment of the mortgage. A lawsuit filed by the company indicates Walters owes $16,500 on the house, which is valued at $94,000 by the Hillsborough County Property Appraiser's Office.
But he owes even more in fines.
Hillsborough County Code Enforcement officers have a lien totalling $26,400 on Walters' property and that number is growing by $100 a day since June 2002.
Code enforcement supervisor Jim Blinck said Walters was cited for problems with his roof, the trim of his house and overgrown conditions on his property. Blinck said if the bank completes the foreclosure and seizes the house, that act will wipe out the county's code lien.
George Aboud, former president of Northdale's homeowners association, said the board has been trying to get Walters to clean his property for years.
"We have written to him, but nothing has been done," Aboud said. "The place continues to deteriorate."
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/23/Northoftampa/Neighbors_know_little.shtml
published February 23, 2003
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NORTHDALE -- Who lives in the home at 4021 Braesgate Lane? The one that sheriff's deputies surrounded for a tense six hours on Monday?
Neighbors know little about the owner, Robert Walters.
They say Walters rarely comes outside before dark. If they happen to meet him while he's walking his dog on the sidewalk, he's usually not inclined to start a conversation.
"If I'm out walking or riding my bike in the late evenings and I see him I'll speak and say hello and he'll just grumble and not speak back," said neighbor Char Adams.
The quiet and reclusive man became the center of attention when deputies, believing he was inside, declared a standoff outside his home.
The drama unfolded after two bank officials involved in a foreclosure on the home told deputies they had seen a stockpile of guns, ammunition and canned goods in the unoccupied home on Feb. 14. When they returned on Monday, they saw a car parked in the driveway and called the Sheriff's Office.
Deputies evacuated about 15 homes and mobilized the SWAT team, the bomb squad and an armored tank. Agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives also were called to the Northdale neighborhood.
Through a loudspeaker, officers pleaded with Walters to answer the phone or come to the front door and talk to them. "We just want to check things out and make sure everything is okay."
But in the end, they discovered that Walters was not even home and that all the guns and ammunition had been legally obtained.
Robert Walters did not respond to interview requests.
His brother Phillip Walters described him as "a gun collector."
"We grew up hunting," he said.
Dozens of Northdale residents watched the spectacle from behind the police tape while they commented on Walters' unkept property and swapped stories about the rare occasions he is seen outside.
Court records show Chase Mortgage Services has moved to foreclose on his home for non-payment of the mortgage. A lawsuit filed by the company indicates Walters owes $16,500 on the house, which is valued at $94,000 by the Hillsborough County Property Appraiser's Office.
But he owes even more in fines.
Hillsborough County Code Enforcement officers have a lien totalling $26,400 on Walters' property and that number is growing by $100 a day since June 2002.
Code enforcement supervisor Jim Blinck said Walters was cited for problems with his roof, the trim of his house and overgrown conditions on his property. Blinck said if the bank completes the foreclosure and seizes the house, that act will wipe out the county's code lien.
George Aboud, former president of Northdale's homeowners association, said the board has been trying to get Walters to clean his property for years.
"We have written to him, but nothing has been done," Aboud said. "The place continues to deteriorate."
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/02/23/Northoftampa/Neighbors_know_little.shtml
Tamara
Senior Member
JohnBT,
Do they normally do this in your neck of the woods for foreclosures? If so, would you please share your location so I can remind myself not to move there?
Do they normally do this in your neck of the woods for foreclosures? If so, would you please share your location so I can remind myself not to move there?
El Rojo
Member
Sure. Fine by me. I don't plan on running out of the house with my M1 Carbine to see what is going on. When they yell at me to come out of the house or pick up the phone, I would probably do that. I would probably call the local PD and tell them, "Hey, there are 200 armed men outside, what do they want? OK, tell them I am unarmed and I am going to exit the house as soon as they acknowledge they got the message that I am unarmed and mean them no harm." Then I exit the house, yes probably swept by numerous muzzles. They cuff me, get it straightened out, then I ask them to show me their MP5s and then they can leave my property!
The idea that these SWAT teams are ready for action and ready to bust caps at a moments notice are often exagerated. Yes, some SWAT teams have been known to over-react or react-improperly. When you get one that does act properly, you hear nothing but critisism. They received a call, they took care of it. Big deal.
johnbt,
I prefaced my remarks on the foreclosure, by acknowledging that the bank guys had proper court orders in hand before changing the locks. Yes the mortgage company is the owner of the house!
Yet, don't minimize the consequences of having a legal judgement of $26K against you...from a government agency. This guy apparantly ignored various notices; the usual response of ignored agencies is to "turn up the heat". They can and will lien anything in sight, including assets used in making a living (ruining your credit rating in itself). Put a block on getting license renewals. Garnish wages (which itself can lead to termination in lots of companies). All the above sure don't help a person maintain current obligations, do they? Some mortgages have acceleration clauses for judgement liens.
I don't have all the facts in this case... if you do, please share them...
However, all this is beside the point of the imagined "threat" and the armored SWAT response. If you're comparing "paranoia quotients", the bank guys and/or sheriffs office that escalated the situation, is the issue here, IMO.
I guess you think the proper title of the thread should be: "Delinquent nutjob gets what coming to him!" (correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point).
Many of these use of force threads break down to defenders vs. critics of the action. No need to impugn the reading skills of those who you disagree with, friend.
I prefaced my remarks on the foreclosure, by acknowledging that the bank guys had proper court orders in hand before changing the locks. Yes the mortgage company is the owner of the house!
Yet, don't minimize the consequences of having a legal judgement of $26K against you...from a government agency. This guy apparantly ignored various notices; the usual response of ignored agencies is to "turn up the heat". They can and will lien anything in sight, including assets used in making a living (ruining your credit rating in itself). Put a block on getting license renewals. Garnish wages (which itself can lead to termination in lots of companies). All the above sure don't help a person maintain current obligations, do they? Some mortgages have acceleration clauses for judgement liens.
I don't have all the facts in this case... if you do, please share them...
However, all this is beside the point of the imagined "threat" and the armored SWAT response. If you're comparing "paranoia quotients", the bank guys and/or sheriffs office that escalated the situation, is the issue here, IMO.
I guess you think the proper title of the thread should be: "Delinquent nutjob gets what coming to him!" (correct me if I'm misunderstanding your point).
Many of these use of force threads break down to defenders vs. critics of the action. No need to impugn the reading skills of those who you disagree with, friend.
Don Gwinn
Moderator Emeritus
Yew ain't from around here, are ya? That should have been obvious your first day.
El Rojo, what can I say? Do what you want. I prefer NOT to have 50 amped-up policemen pointing automatic weapons at me for no good reason, but it's your life. Just don't complain if/when it doesn't go quite as smoothly as you outlined there. I'm sure that poor sucker who had hundreds of rounds fired into his house in San Antonio because one SWAT ninja had an ND would agree with you that what happened to him is just the price we pay. That was a great training opportunity, too. The team medics and the ER got some practice in on that one, as did the morgue and the Medical Examiner. And of course, if the Branch Davidians had just come out peacefully to talk to BATF, everything would have been fine, right? And the Weavers--what the heck were Kevin and the boy thinking? They should have gone back to the cabin, called the Cour D'Alene PD and asked them why men in camouflage body armor with silenced submachine guns and automatic rifles were hiding in their woods. If they'd kept a leash on that damn dog, it wouldn't have gotten shot, after all. Just because it's your property doesn't give you the right to expect that you won't be surrounded by 50 hostile and armed representatives of your government. :banghead:
In other words, the man's big crime was not painting his trim, having missing shingles, and not mowing the grass or trimming the shrubbery enough. I notice that junked cars are not mentioned this time. I don't claim to know whether the original report that he was a nutcase with a yard full of junked cars was true, but you'd think that would be mentioned before "the trim on the house." The trim on my house is old and decrepit because the house is 100 years old. However, I don't live in a neighborhood dominated by a bunch of old biddies on an HOA board, so I'll fix it when I finish more important repairs inside.
Another good reason to move out of town. If you live in a town, you don't own your property.
DeltaElite
Member
Well I am paranoid and I do have anti-govt leanings.
BTW, I work for the govt.
We have too much govt and it is poorly focused, the more govt we get, the less efficient it becomes.
So yah, I am anti-govt in some ways and paranoia is a way of life for a street cop.
BTW, I work for the govt.
We have too much govt and it is poorly focused, the more govt we get, the less efficient it becomes.
So yah, I am anti-govt in some ways and paranoia is a way of life for a street cop.
deanf
Member
Point of order: The government has no authority to regulate conduct on private property that doesn't cause anyone direct physical harm, therefore, the fines for junk cars should not be an issue.
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