Police Armament

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Arming the police like they're in the military is never a good idea. If they need rifles why does it ALWAYS have to be an M-16 variant? How about a marlin .30-30. Two rifles in the car is just silly. Every copcar should have a shotgun in it. 200 rounds for the sidearm????
 
why

do 2 rifles scare you? He can only use em one at a time.I liken it to having the right size wrench for each bolt.
 
Why not an M16 variant? The government has wharehouses full of paid for M16's, that a local law enforcement agency can apply to receive, the rifle remains the property of the government, it's basically being lent, versus sitting in a wharehouse or heaven forbid chopped up and smelted, for which the government receives a bare pittance of the value.

M16 has nice ergonomics, can be fired by men/women of various statures, can be accessorised if need be, has a cartridge of sufficient lethality, is more accurate than most off the shelf hunting rifles, can stand up to a fair amount of abuse, unintentional or otherwise, something a tube fed magazine on a 30/30 (marlin or winchester) is not really capable of, one dent and it's down to a single shot, damage a mag on the M16, drop it an insert another.

2 rifles, an M16 variant and a precision rifle firing a longer range cartridge, out in rural area's you do have to deal with things other than the 2 legged problems and a rifle with more range an punch can come in handy and if you run into a barricade situation, where he has a rifle, then sitting within the 200 yard prime operational envelope of an iron sighted 30/30 is a bit silly, when you can sit out at 4 or maybe 600 if need be, with a scope mounted precision .308 and take advantage of your training.

Law enforcement personnel in the country, operate under completely different set's of conditions, than those in small medium and large cities. The cavalry may be a too far away to be of any use, so what you have with you, may be the only back up you have.

I carry spare rounds in the truck for my CCW, probably about 200 rounds and since I have went for an impromptu swim a time or two recovering vehicles,animals or other equipment, being able to switch out wet magazines and ammunition for dry ones, is nothing more than common sense, in my opinion.
 
Your insults are not even slighty veiled. Attack as you will, I can take whatever you have, dish it right back out and never get cross. To keep others from getting bored though I will just choose to ignore crassness.

Sir, I have no reason to attack or debate. My guess is that about 99% of the people on this forum read the comment ("OC and a good side arm") and burst out laughing with images of Barney Fife running through their head. Such an out of touch with reality argument is not worth debating.
 
Reality

I'm amazed that there are members here who insist that they be allowed to own any weapon they want (which I agree with) but who would deny the people they hire to take care of the problems they don't want to bother with the tools to do their job.

Here is a news article on the last time my rifle came out of the squad car:
http://www.wjbdradio.com/news_view.asp?WEBID=6951
10/02/06 Manhunt continues for rural Alma man.
The Marion County Sheriff's Department is continuing to seek a 31-year-old rural Alma man who allegedly beat-up his parents and wrestled away a gun from his father before fleeing on foot into a wooded area. Deputies identify the man being sought as Anthony Dell.

His parents----James and Connie Gwaltney of Hicks Road---were both treated at Salem Township Hospital for their injuries. Deputies say after a two hour manhunt was called off last night, Dell apparently broke into the home, stole a shotgun, and took his father's truck that had been left outside the home.

The initial altercation apparently began when Dell's parents would not give him a ride to town. James Gwaltney sustained a broken jaw and facial lacerations. Connie Gwaltney was reportedly thrown down some stairs and sustained a hip injury. Deputies say after obtaining a handgun, James Gwaltney fired a shot at his son's feet to try and bring the situation under control. Instead, Dell got the gun away from his father and fired two shots at his father's feet.

Sheriff Brad Wolenhaupt reports the search was hampered due to large amount of wooded area and no one seeing which way Dell had fled. The Marion County Sheriff's Department is seeking the public's help in locating Dell.

He is described as six feet two inches tall, weighing 270 pounds, with brown eyes and brown hair. Dell may be in his father's red 1989 Ford pickup with license place number 3-2-7-0-0-C.

Deputies say Dell should be considered armed and dangerous. Anyone with information is encouraged to contact the Marion County Sheriff's Department or Crimestoppers at 1-800-499-88-35.

On October 1st approximately 9:30 pm a call was dispatched for a domestic disturbance on Hicks Road which is about 3 miles from the nearest town, Alma, and about 5 miles from where I work. The shots were fired while the dispatcher was on the phone with the complainant.

There were two deputies on duty at the time. The closest was around 10 miles away. I was asked to assist. We arrived on scene to find the mother and stepfather severely beaten and the suspect gone on foot. The area is a mixture of woods, corn and beanfields and pasture. There was a mobile home set on a walk in basement foundation and several outbuildings. We knew that the suspect was a convicted felon who wasn't supposed to possess firearms, that he was very intoxicated, armed at the time with at least one gun (a .22 revolver) and had fired shots. We had no idea where he was.

The immediate problem was to protect the victims and EMS while they were evacuated. That was accomplished and a deputy from the next shift arrived and a few minutes later the Lt. from the sheriffs department. It was decided that there wasn't the manpower available to cordon off the area so we cleared the immediate area, the mobile home and outbuildings and left.

We could have taken fire from a distance of 100 yards or more. Those are the conditions we work under. Day in and day out. The idea that everything in rural areas is always quiet and peaceful and that you can be equipped to handle every situation with a handgun and pepperspray is ludicrus. There is the same crime in the rural areas that there is in the big city. There isn't as much, but then again, we don't have a fraction of the resources available to an officer working in an urban area. Andy and Barney worked for a television network not a real municipality.

Jeff
 
In my experience, a rural county deputy is more likely to be a)pro gun ownership for ALL of us, b) a LOT less likely to have an "us vs. them" mentality, and c)waiting a long time for any kind of back-up. That's just the guy I'm OK with having a few extra tools in the toolbox. It's the big-city paramilitary outfits that worry me.
 
I'm amazed at the negative stuff I'm reading here, so much of it written by people that are clueless about a rural LEO's job. When you're out there by yourself and you're the only law around and back up is 20+ minutes away IF they can pin down your exact location, you need all the help you can get. It's easy for you guys to sit at your keyboard and talk about what is right or wrong, needed or not since you don't do the job and can walk away from somebody else's problem if it gets too hot for you. We don't have that luxury.

That being said, I'm not as well equipped as the deputy being discussed here because I have to purchase my own weapons and gear. If I could afford the stuff he's got or if somebody was issuing it to me, I'd have it. As it is, when I leave the house I am armed with an H&K USP Compact .357sig with 2 spare mags on me and 3 more in my bag, a Kel-tec P3at as a bug with 1 spare mag on me, and a Bushmaster C15M4 with 5 spare mags.
I'm in the market for a shotgun and when I purchase it I'll qualify with it and the I'll be taking it with me as well.
 
What's astounding to me is that I am hearing a lot of "Police shouldn't have this much stuff" and "why does a cop need 2 rifles, one being an AR?"


THAT IS THE SAME NONSENSE THE ANTIS SAY ABOUT US

You think you should be free to buy as many guns and ammo as you want to prepare for "SHTF" scenarios, but Police, who actually have to live through the S hitting the fan on a daily basis can't have what they need?

These double standards are disgusting.
 
Just because someone is a police officer does not mean they aren't entitled to the same right to be prepared as we are.

in their own homes, yes. Out in the line of duty, they have different responsibilites than I do. But they are also being funded by my tax dollars, and unlike most government beaurocrats seem to think, money does not grow on trees.

I have no problem with the handgun, shotgun, rifle. To me, the ar 15 and the Remington 700 could probably be combined into a single longgun, so that is a waste of money, as is the ton of extra pistol mags and ammo.

One person said that 'there is a lot worse government waste' and while that is true, it doesn't make THIS waste more acceptable.

Maybe he has it, maybe he doesn't but something like a defibulator would be much higher on the list of things I would want my rural deputy to carry vs an AR-15 if he already had a full powered rifle of some sort.

Just remember, all those new toys may mean 1 less warm body on the police force as well.
 
THAT IS THE SAME NONSENSE THE ANTIS SAY ABOUT US

You think you should be free to buy as many guns and ammo as you want to prepare for "SHTF" scenarios, but Police, who actually have to live through the S hitting the fan on a daily basis can't have what they need?

These double standards are disgusting.


no it is not a double standard, unless the cop is buying the extra stuff on his own. Hey, if he wants to have 12 SKSes in the back of his cruiser in case he needs to deputize some locals in the wake of an EOTWAWKI scenario, fine with me, as long as he buys them with his own money.

But when I am buying them, I definately have the right to voice my opinion on what tools we can afford to equip him with, especially when you get into the equation of 50 extremely equipped cops in rolling command vans vs 75 cops with a more standard set of equipment
 
Ok so you guys honestly believe the police should be issued 4 firearms. Why on earth would a cop need a bolt action and an auto? Why not give him a revolver for the other hip while you're at it? Maybe mount a rocket launcher on the roof of the car too. After all you never know when the bad guys are gonna get armored cars.
As i've said mulitiple times arming the police like they're in the military is a bad idea. All a cop needs for guns is a .357 revolver and a .30-30 levergun.
 
All a cop needs for guns is a .357 revolver and a .30-30 levergun.

Actaul engagements police have had with multiple heavily armed and armored criminals proves you're wrong.

t's a good thing they have to respond to 911 calls as public servants, because I honestly wonder if some of you are deserving of their selfless sacrifice.
 
"I have no problem with the handgun, shotgun, rifle. To me, the ar 15 and the Remington 700 could probably be combined into a single longgun, so that is a waste of money, as is the ton of extra pistol mags and ammo."

Only problem with a compromise weapon is that it doesn't do either job particularly well.

AR10 great rifle can easily reach out to distances covered by the Rem 700, but the .308 massively over penetrates at close range and can shoot thru several mobile homes and and gyproc/stud walls in most homes. Mounting a scope on it to allow it to fill the Rem 700 role, means removing said scope if one needs to employ it in a close quarters situation. If you need to switch ammunition to reduce the over penetration risk, then the .308 is unsuitable for the task at hand.

Set up the M16/Ar15 to fulfill the dual role, .223 is lacking in terminal effect when one needs to reach out there and touch someone, does poorly against barriers and you still need to remove the long range optics for up close use. Advantage much less likely to dramatically over penetrate and you don't need to switch ammunition to accomplish this.

LAWYERS...would love it, when you go to civil court and you tell them that, yes we swapped out optics on a rifle, because we needed to use it at short/long range and due to the dynamic situation we were encountering at the time and place, we were unable to verify zero, before we employed deadly force.... heaven forbid if you injured an innocent...you just handed the plaintiff the keys to the bank. Kiss your budget goodbye and watch your taxes jump! Oh yeah let's save a few bucks.

Liability and safety is why you see a specific rifle issued to a specific person, very few SWAT snipers share a rifle, my zero, isn't your zero and if you have to make that shot, you had better have absolute faith in the rifle you are using and if it is only your rifle and you know it inside and out.

Many smaller departments can afford an extra rifle or two and the needed training/refresher courses for the officers,better than they can afford to add a 30,000 dollar a year officer and probably another cruiser.

A perfect world it isn't
 
i was not aware of any engagement with criminals wearing body armor a 30-30 wasn't able to penetrate, please post more info on this, it seems to have missed my local news
 
Penetration isn't the only factor. Supressing fire against criminal armed with select fire weapons makes standing and taking a long aimed shot fairly difficult. And not ever police officer is or has the time to become a marksman.
 
Akodo,

We have a hostage situation, where a mentally disturbed person is holding a women hostage, a officer can take out the bad guy before he commits harm to said hostage by hacking her up with a machete, but all he has is an iron sighted 30/30 and the distance is about 100 yards, because the BG was acting irrational and the officer was trying to keep him calm until help arrives.

CAN you stop the BG before he kills the hostage and is the 30/30 Winchester 150 rnsp with irons capable of the needed accuracy to do the job.....

Same situation with a scoped Rem 700 and a 168 HPBTM Federal Gold Medal Match...

Which is better suited to the job and if you or a loved one were the hostage, which rifle would you rather the officer had?
 
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Chief, you also make valid points and I understand you want to keep your officers safe. I also hope you understand where I am coming from. I applaud you for training your officers so well in force continuum. I cannot say that my opinion has changed but I understand your stand and can respect that. AR's are a starting point, then its black 511's, then its beat cops in APC's with a M60 mounted on top under the guise of keeping the children safe. I just can't see it as being good for America.

Now to address the assumption that the desire to prohibit the militarization of our police forces is tantamount to the activities of the gun control crowd I whole heartedly cry "Low grade male bovine fecal matter!" The roll of law enforcement officers in their line of duty and the responsibility I have for my own personal safety and that of the ones I choose to protect are very different. When an officer is out of uniform and not performing in any offical duties they should have whatever armament they desire and can legally possess. A civilian with the responsibility to protect life and limb is the same no matter what the nature of their job or where they call home. While they are on the job though and representing the state or local goverment they work for, they are temporary out of the protection business and into the law enforcement. They have made a choice to do so and must surrender some rights while serving in such a capacity. Our fighting men women are forced to do the same. Service sometimes mean sacrifice.
 
Akodo, Hoploholic or whatever your name is....

Am I the only one here who was a freakin Boy Scout?

Remember the motto?

BE PREPARED!!!!!

I want every law enforcement officer to be sufficiently over-armed to effectively combat any violent situation.

Good ol' Massaad Ayoob always says "Have the heavy firepower on your side."

I would much rather pay the extra taxes to adequately arm our law enfocement officers than I would subsidize healthcare of illegal aliens or give a pay raise to a politician.

Good Lord willing, I'll be a gainfully emplyed police officer in about one more year... and I'll want to carry everything my captain will let me. Whatever helps me get back home safely to my family.

Whoever suggests that the police should not be allowed to carry the most effective weapons available should have their guns taken away and forced to CCW a friggin slingshot.
 
Hoplocholic wrote:
While they are on the job though and representing the state or local goverment they work for, they are temporary out of the protection business and into the law enforcement.

So... to serve and protect means what to you?
 
Hank, that is exactly why the Founding Fathers acknowledged the necessity of a properly armed and well regulated militia. The cops are not here to protect us. Believe me, you don't want to surrender that capacity to them either.
 
That is the easiest of all questions...to protect the laws of the land and to serve the community in such a capacity.
 
That is the easiest of all questions...to protect the laws of the land and to serve the community in such a capacity.

That's actually a very well thought-out response.

I still call BS, though. Every LEO I have ever had the pleasure of meeting were genuinely good people and very much concerned with the personal safety of every productive citizen (and some people I personally don't feel were worth protecting) in their jurisdiction.

Yeah, some cops that pulled me over for speeding were the all high-and-mighty type, but the fact remains was I was exceeding the legal speed limit, so they were in the right.

The vast majority of law enforcement officers are concerned with your safety. It would speak well of you if you were concerned with theirs.
 
:what: :what: It's very shocking to think that some of the very people who feel that they need to be armed are ones who insist that law enforcement shouldn't be (or just barebones so). Strange. Anyhow, I'm all for law enforcement having WHATEVER and HOW EVER MANY tools they need to protect my life and limb.
 
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