Police Armament

[ProguninTN]

LE equipment

Interesting comments from all. My only objection to the equipment officers have is when they insist they need their guns, but I don't because I am a civilian. "Guns for me, but not for thee." Fortunately, I have not met LEO's like that.

 

[Logan5]

There are a lot of things that a Fireman, State Trooper, etc, might need that I never will, and I'm not a hobbyist concerned with the nuances of SCBA, trench rescue, chemical warfare, communications interoperability, or hot stuff patrol cars, but I do know it all costs a lot of money.
One of my concerns is that State actors enjoy a legal posture where they have access to all the good toys, and might feel inclined to emphasise a specific kind of fun new toy over all around talent and training, which I feel is needed.
For instance, how many fatal highway crashes can a given state's State Police Officers be expected to respond to over the course of their careers? As far as I know, most state cops are also MRT's. Has anyone worked out the cost benefit of upgrading the training to EMT/Paramedic and issuing the appropriate equipment while breaking out the old Thompsons vs buying the new AR's? It's probably totally impractical, but since I have the opportunity to ask, why not?

 

[DRMMR02]

Or, like others have said, simply sell the old Thompsons, and they'll have the money for the new ARs AND as much medical equipment and training as they want.

But that wouldn't look good on the 6oclock news..."Police station sells guns to public"...

 

[Hoploholic]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -An Historical Review of the Constitution and Government of Pennsylvania by Benjamin Franklin

If you cannot see the pertinence of this statement, then your future is very dim indeed. We are engaged in a cultural war. It is not a comforting thought, but the unease of it does not make it any less true.

 

[hankdatank1362]

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

I don't see how allowing...nay...encouraging the local law enfocement to be as well armed as we citizens have the right to be is giving up any essential liberties?

 

[mpmarty]

I worked for a rural city PD in the sixties in the southwest. I carried a scoped 03A3 with fifty rounds of Lake City match ammo, a 12ga 870 short barrel, a Smith model 19 4" and we had reisings in the armory at city hall. I don't know how a thoughtful person can expect any LEO to go forth and do his sworn duty knowing the citizens he serves want to lengthen his odds of survival by limiting his weapons choices. That is about as brainless an attitued as I can imagine.

 

[junyo]

I don't know how a thoughtful person can expect any LEO to go forth and do his sworn duty knowing the citizens he serves want to lengthen his odds of survival by limiting his weapons choices.

Yet lots of LEOs (not talking about you, or anyone specifically, just the prevailing attitudes of the LE community expressed via surveys and endorsements) have no compunction about limiting the choices available to the citizens they serve.

 

[DRMMR02]

This is the part where you back up that claim with a link to the surveys.

 

[junyo]

This is the part where you back up that claim with a link to the surveys.

Lessee:
- NOLA gun confiscations
- In a survey of local law enforcement for my area

• 58.1% responded Yes to the question "If a law were passed making it illegal for civilians to possess semi-automatic, military looking firearms, would you participate in dynamic entry, house to house searches to seize these firearms if so ordered by a superior?"
• 53% responded Yes to the question "If a law were passed making it illegal for civilians to possess any type of firearm, would you participate in dynamic entry, house to house searches to seize them if so ordered by a superior?"
• 14.6% responded Yes to the question "Do you fear the possession of guns by the civilian?"
• 16.3% responded yes to the question"Do law abiding citizens who carry concealed weapons endanger the public?"

The continuation of the AWB was endorsed by better than 200 police chiefs and sheriffs in addition to the following groups:
- International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP)
- Major Cities Chiefs Association (MCCA)
- Police Foundation
- Police Executive Research Forum (PERF)
- International Brotherhood of Police Officers (IBPO)
- National Association of School Resource Officers (NASRO)
- National Fraternal Order of Police (FOP)
- National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives (NOBLE)
- Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association (HAPCOA)
- National Black Police Association (NBPA)

Yeah, yeah, I know that since I haven't talked to every single police officer in the US making my statement was completely ridiculous and makes me a police-hating hippy... just thought I'd get the inevitable response out of the way.

 

[Pgrl]

I think that's a trick survey. "If so ordered by a superior." If my boss told me to go collect guns (although I'm in medical billing, not law enforcement!) I sure as heck would start collecting.

 

[gunrunner811]

I have had this discussion with several officers most say that if it came down to disarming the general public, they would walk off the job. Myself included!!! There is no way I could go along with doing something that I am that strongly against. In the area that I serve "rural Mo" most of the officers that I work with have a fairly large collection of firearms on there own. I even own a few that have the very dangerous folding stock and bayonet lug. IMHO

 

[sinistr]

seems reasonable to me....as long as,1)proper training.2)the weapons were well secured.

 

[Jeff White]

The trick here is from junyo, who has selectively posted questions from the survey:

There were 43 questions in the survey and junyo only posted a couple. hmmm are we as guilty as we calim the media is about selective reporting of facts to bolster our opinion?

From the survey:

Answers to questions 1-6 are the % that strongly disagree
1 Gun laws reduce crime 40.8
2 More gun laws will reduce crime 49.1
3 Outlawing civilian gun ownership will result in less crime 66.5
4 Outlawing civilian gun ownership will result in more crime. 23.3
5 Outlawing civilian gun ownership will result in a more civilized society 57.2
6 The federal 5-day waiting period (Brady Law) is effective in preventing criminals from obtaining firearms 46.4
Answer to question 7 is % that strongly agrees with the statement
7 Laws limiting gun ownership to law abiding citizens do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals 73.9

We go on to questions 11 - 18:


Yes No
11 Do you have children who live at home? 56.3 43.7
12 Do you have privately owned firearms in your home? 93.8 6.2

13 Have you already or do you intend to teach your children and/or spouse the safe handling of firearms? 92.5 7.5
14 Will laws dictating the mandatory use of trigger locks significantly reduce accidental gun deaths? 35.3 64.7
15 Is it proper for politicians to dictate how firearms will be kept in your home (e.g. locked, disassembled, etc.)? 11.6 88.4
16 Is it proper for politicians to dictate to firearms manufacturers or dealers that trigger locks will be sold with every gun? 34.8 65.2
17 Do you lock your service sidearm and/or privately owned firearms whan at home so they are not able to be accidentally fired? 53.2 46.8
18 Is a gun trigger locking device an adequate replacement for proper safety training? 7.0 93.0

The survey goes on like this. If you read the survey you have to conclude that the rank and file police are about as progun as anyone on THR. Their knowledge of the definitions of things like semi automatic assault weapons and of federal firearms laws that they are not charged with enforcing is about the same as the average THR member's if you can judge by the questions that are posted here.

Jeff

 

[FTF]

Deleted cuz I'm a darn idiot lol.

 

[hankdatank1362]

I've said it before...

Don't drink and post. It makes for an embarassing morning.

FTF - acronym for Failure To Form cohesive arguments.

 

[FTF]

Hey, I'm not arguing, you are right.

 

[X-Rap]

How about the confiscations in New Orleans? Were these LEOs sent there specificly because of their will to take guns from civilians.

 

[12GA00buck]

As far as the, "Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." quote is concerned; IMO, it has nothing to do with the personal armament of police officers. I don’t see how having well armed police has anything to do with me giving up personal liberties. Liberties are concepts and ideas, not firearms. Its how the guns are used, not what model they are. I have family who are LEO's, and I'm damned glad they carry AR-15's and such. The cost of effective firepower is nothing compared to the cost of a funeral and family trauma. Seriously, I don’t see why anyone is griping about a few thousand dollars worth of guns. What is the cost of hiring and training a new police officer after one is gunned downed because he was ill equipped? The government already wastes an astronomical amount of our tax dollars. Arming police is not one of them.

About the guns themselves, I don’t think the shotgun is outdated by a long shot. With slugs it is effective out to at least 75yards, many would argue more. Nothing creates a larger would channel as fast, at sub 20yard ranges, as a load of buckshot. The shotgun also allows for breaching rounds and less than lethal rubber ones. I think an officer with a few good side arms and a shotgun is well equipped for most situations. I think adding a capable rifle tops thinks off though. My personal choice would be an AR platform rifle, chambered for the 6.5mm Swede (go ahead and laugh, I think it is a good idea ), add a quality surefire and a 1.5-5X scope.

 

[mr.trooper]

I mean, would anybody with a modicum of do a 200+ rounds of ammo battle with his handgun, when (since he already went back to his car), he's got access to a rifle.

Solid Snake?

 

[jcoiii]

Were all of these weapons dept issued? Or were some his own?

 

[ezmedic]

AMEN Jeff

 

[Reyn]

I carry a G31 with 3mags on my person. A G26 on my ankle with 1 10rd mag. I have a Mossy 500 in the trunk along with a M16a1 with several 30rd mags. Some guys also have HK UMPs .40. I like the M16 better.

 

[1911 guy]

I'm all for cops having whatever tools they need.

If they need it, they should have it. If they don't have a reason for it, whoever approved the expenditure should be disciplined. A rural officer with a load-out like what was mentioned in the original post doesn't bother me one bit. The APC purchased by Geauga Co., Ohio does. Big cost, never been used in ten years except for parades. It's attitude and training, not equipment.

Now for the other argument, cops are civillians. If you want a line of demarcation, here it is: Armed Services and everybody else. Just because the average Joe aught to have a little respect for the guy walking a beat doesn't make that police officer any different in society. This "US and THEM" mentality of some officers is what makes some of us hasty to remind them of their place. I'll support the police, but don't expect special treatment if you wrong me. Especially with the attitude of being a more elevated status than me. We're both guys trying to make a buck and a living.

 

[junyo]

My original stament:

Yet lots of LEOs (not talking about you, or anyone specifically, just the prevailing attitudes of the LE community expressed via surveys and endorsements) have no compunction about limiting the choices available to the citizens they serve.

The challenge to me:

This is the part where you back up that claim with a link to the surveys.

Now according to Mr. White, I've 'cherrypicked' because I posted information that backed out my statement, along with a link to the source material and methodology. Diabolical, I so wanted to obscur the true viewpoint of LEOs that I cleverly gave the source. Further, Mr. White makes the statement:

If you read the survey you have to conclude that the rank and file police are about as progun as anyone on THR.

How this speaks to my original statement I'm not sure, since I didn't say "all" or even "most" but merely "lots", but if Mr. White would care to validate his statement he can create a poll and see if more than half the members here would disregard their personal views on firearms and help forcibly disarm their fellow citizens if ordered to by some authority. Because regardless of the other statements, that one is fairly cut and dry. You could also do a poll to see if more that 1 in 7 of us feel that civilian ownership of weapons is something to fear or that carrying concealed makes one a danger to the public. Since you've chosen to challenge my integrity, how about we test yours?

 

[Powderman]

Well, I work for a Tribal law enforcement agency. Our jurisdiction takes in a huge chunk of urban area, an even bigger chunk of rural (as in out in the woods) area, and we also patrol parts of Puget Sound (Fish and Wildlife).

What do I have in my car when I go out?

Service pistol: Colt GM Enhanced, with 5 magazines of Ranger SXT 230 grain.
Shotgun: Winchester Defender loaded alternating slug and buck, with four more slugs and two buckshot on a sidesaddle.
Patrol rifle: AR15A4, with 7 magazines of Federal .223.
Precision rifle: Savage 10FP-LE2A, with 40 rounds Federal 168 grain GM Match.
Backup: G27, with one full reload of .40 Ranger SXT.
Extra cuffs, flex cuffs, OC, baton, etc.

And, before anyone complains about the waste of the taxpayer's money, guess how much ALL of this costs the Department?

Other than ammunition (Department issued)--ZERO! Zilch, zip, nada! I provided it all.

And yes, I qualified with EVERY weapon I carry--more than once, I may add.

Courtesy of the few--the proud--the Reserve Officers!