police have to fire my gun?

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thought all they wanted is the bullet itself, all guns i have bought lately had a spent case shipped with them. i got the case they got the bullet.

just say if it was a 45acp and the bad guy didn't want it to trace back to him ,he would just buy another $50 barrel i would think. then the spent case is useless.

but this is only good for the honest citizen anyway ,

bad guy will buy off the street, steal one or paper were no checks are done anyway, so this is a little useless,
it might help recover you gun if it got stolen maybe.
 
From what I hear from a police officer friend of mine, the State Police barracks has a basement full of spend shell casings and expended bullets that have been submitted, but they do not have the resources to even catalogue them. What a waste of taxpayer money! They spent 13 million dollars to start this program years ago, yet not one crime has been solved tracing the shell casings and bullets fired from the guns of licensed handgun owners. Idiots.
 
Big E said:
Um, ballistic fingerprinting is not voodoo, it is science. Yes, wear does occur, but most criminals don't shoot their firearms enough to cause this. There are numerous cases my father has helped close through ballistic fingerprinting.

Please don't doubt me either. I have been to AFTE conferences, my dad is a CSI and I did a science fair project on "bullet matching." You can believe that is just a hoax, but it is not.

The National Academy of Sciences (an elite group of scientists chosen to advise the President on scientific matters) would beg to differ:

From here:
Forensic evidence is often offered in criminal prosecutions and civil litigation to support conclusions about individualization -- in other words, to "match" a piece of evidence to a particular person, weapon, or other source. But with the exception of nuclear DNA analysis, the report says, no forensic method has been rigorously shown able to consistently, and with a high degree of certainty, demonstrate a connection between evidence and a specific individual or source.

And from here:
However, it cautions that the statement commonly made by firearms examiners that "matches" of ballistic evidence identify a particular source gun "to the exclusion of all other firearms" should be avoided. There is currently no statistical justification for such a statement, and it is inconsistent with the element of subjectivity inherent in any firearms examiner's assessment of a match.
 
Folks, while the way these "fingerprinting systems" are implemented at the state level is a complete waste of time and money, "ballistic fingerprinting" itself is just a gun-specific variation of tool mark matching/analysis, and is not "voodoo"; it is very real and has been used in many cases, I assure you.

Machined, or stamped surfaces are unique; that is going to include anything the case touches during the firing or ejecting sequence: Firing pin, breechface, extractor, ejector, etc. You'd have to replace at least the entire upper half of a pistol to eliminate them all.

Is it is as good as DNA; of course not. It is not something that will be capable of generating a conviction on its own. It is a piece of corroborating evidence:

1) We have a case/bullet/etc recovered from the crime scene.
2) We have a gun found in the possession of our suspect. Do the two match?

If not, it suggests they have the wrong gun, the wrong man, or both. If so, it suggests they have the right guy and/or the right gun. Nothing more, nothing less. A good case against someone will require much more: motive, opportunity, more forensic evidence, etc, etc. Tool mark analysis is just one narrow field of forensic science; a single piece of information in a criminal case with a million moving parts. How relevant it will be in a specific case will depend on the exact circumstances.

I'm not a forensic investigator; I just watch them on TV. :D
 
Anybody consider the fact that with a couple of minutes and some emery tape, you can change the profile of a firing pin, bolt face, extractor and rifling completely? You can shoot someone with a certain gun, and in a couple of minutes with a piece of sandpaper, God himself couldn't prove that gun did it.
 
SO very grateful to live in a gun friendly state with common sense laws (crossing fingers, toes and eyes this never changes).
 
If the gun-control crowd get enough of this kind of bogus law and red-tape procedures on the books, it makes gun ownership more restrictive...thus infringing our second amendment. I rest my case.
 
As I understand it this was a compromise. The original legislation called for a case and a fired bullet to be included also. All guns are test fired at the factory before being boxed up and sent out to the dealers. It is very easy for the manufacturer to include one empty case at no extra cost but catching a bullet without damage would require additional equipment and would have added to the cost of the firearm.
 
I am sorry for all of you that live in states like that.

Me, too.

I think if I was stuck in one of those states, I'd give serious thought to moving to America. :cool:
 
insane

This is the most insane thing I ever heard. This is nothing more the a way of back dooring and circumventing their way to a ridicuolis form of gun control. This is another infringment on our rights.
 
I think we're all pretty much agreed its insane, the kind of thing that sounds good to legislators unencumbered with facts.

I wonder what's more likely, an actual accurate conviction based on this database or a false positive that incriminates an innocent party.

Either way, its money down the drain that could be used for additional law enforcement or many other more worthy uses.
 
They probably realized that there is no way to ensure that the cases supplied with a given firearm were, in fact, actually fired in THAT firearm;

Excellent point. Can anyone say "chain of custody."
 
I know one thing... I would definitely be buying from private sellers as much as possible if I lived in one of those states. And if I couldn't avoid buying something from a dealer, I would change the barrel and firing pin just for the principle of the thing, if nothing else.
 
Remnants of Junk Science, gotta love NY (head shaking no)

btw, it's not about the bullet, it's about the casing. JUNK SCIENCE... let them take the case, then when you get your gun, polish the bolt face....
JUNK FAIL>
 
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I can understand the logic behind this with autos because they eject the brass at the scene of the crime but with REVOLVERS?

Simple. You pass a law requiring criminals using revolvers to eject their empties at the crime scene.

its money down the drain that could be used for additional law enforcement or many other more worthy uses.

I have heard estimates that the funds spendt by Maryland on the impractical and useless ballistic fingerprint database would have fully funded adding twelve highway troopers, including training, pay, benefits, patrol car, etc.
 
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The other issue created by this is the sort of back-door registry that MD has with these databases. In MD, firearm registration is voluntary, but for handguns we have to submit casings with our paperwork for a background check... by the state police.
 
I don't know if it's true but I heard, read or watched something along the lines of micro-printing a ID number on the firing pin.

I got one with the last new gun I bought. It came in a sealed envelope with the ser.# mod. and manufacturer of the gun AND grooves/twist/turns.
That gives them another way of IDing a gun from the case.
Andy Kalacinski signed his name on the envelope.
Don't have to send them in OH.


The central problem of our age is how to act decisively in the absence of certainty. - Bertrand Russell
 
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It is not about preventing crime, solving crime or catching crooks.

It is about making life just a bit more difficult and expensive for gun owners. To the Ruling Class, that is worth ANY expense. So this stupid (to us) legislation serves its purpose.

BTW, if I was in a state that did this, I'd suddenly be much more eager to lap barrels (instead on concentrating on the gun that actually leads the barrel), polish chambers, polish breech faces, replace/upgrade firing pins and replace/upgrade extractors (if I hadn't just polished and reshaped a bit).

I believe in privacy, but the Ruling Class does not.
 
When criticism of the Maryland system focussed on lack of results in solving crime, supporters pointed out that it had the effect of raising the price of handguns sold in Maryland, which they considered a good thing.
 
Carl N. Brown said:
When criticism of the Maryland system focussed on lack of results in solving crime, supporters pointed out that it had the effect of raising the price of handguns sold in Maryland, which they considered a good thing.

Don't forget it also cements registration in place with such legal requirements.
Tracking the marks made by guns obviously requires tracking the guns too.
A system to track marks in a database is also going to allow easy browsing of gun owners by make, model, serial number, address, etc


This also has a strong potential to introduce false leads, incriminating innocent people.
Let us say someone is killed. Investigators determine X firearm type fired the round.
While the science of specific guns over time with wear being matched is greatly exaggerated, matching a particular firearm model or narrowing it down to a couple possible models is much easier, as different guns use different rifling and are built differently. With some guns a range of models can have similar markings not even limiting it to single model types, but it does narrow down what it was quite a bit.
Now let us say the investigators wish to develop leads, and so look in their database to see who in the area legally has such registered firearm models.
They get several hits. Now multiple innocent gun owners are under scrutiny. If one of them also happens to have known or crossed paths with, or otherwise had some sort of possible contact with the victim they may even become a prime suspect.
All because they just happened to own a certain model firearm.


One of the primary reasons for "success" in "ballistic fingerprinting" has to do with the low number of guns typically being used in crimes, and so even entered in a database at all. So even though hundreds or even thousands of other guns would probably be close matches across the nation, only 1 of that particular model with those markings has been involved in homicides in X inner city against Y gang.
Another reason for success is the low round count between crimes.
Yet a hobbyist firing thousands of rounds is likely to have their specific gun change profile enough to match many different guns during the same time period.
When you start it may have similar markings to a handful of guns in one state or region, and during the course of wear begin to match several different guns in another state, and a year later no longer match the original guns, and now match several new guns. The marking change, the scratches change, the metal making the markings wears, changes angles of contact, etc. Take a really popular model firearm, and you can be certain the markings of many specific guns of that model will overlap, and cease to overlap, multiple times throughout the course of use and wear. Your gun may in fact become a "perfect match" for different guns used in crimes around the nation, cease to match those guns, and then begin to match yet new crime guns all throughout its lifetime.
Yet another reason for success is the experts simply stating their certainty it was that particular firearm enough to be convincing to a jury, even if hundreds of other guns across the nation would match they are unknown, not in a database, and not part of the case.

"Fingerprint" truly is the wrong term. A fingerprint is much more unique, and absent certain damage grows back in that same pattern. A fingerprint is also measuring the actual swirls and whorls, not the slight scratch you got on your finger doing some yard work, that will be healed a week later and have a different scratch or cut from some new project or maintenance. The cuts, callouses, wear and indentations would constantly be changing on your fingers.
Compare this with firearms and "ballistic fingerprinting", where it is those constantly changing scratches being used to "ID" the exact firearm, while the specific rifling or other major constants are the same for thousands of similar models and often a range of model firearms manufactured similarly.
The only way actual fingerprints would be similar is if you had thousands of people with the same fingerprints, and were trying to measure wear and scratches on those thousands of identical fingerprints to tell them apart. Which would be constantly changing on those otherwise identical fingerprints, making any database based on such scratches worthless over the course of time.
 
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Once-fired casing...

My last (and only registered) pistol was a S&W that came with a once-fired casing in a sealed envelope with the explanation on the outside that it was to be given to authorities when required by local laws. So I proceeded to give it to myself to reload as I was the only reliable authority available at the time. :rolleyes:

I've been a gun owner and reloader for over 35 years and this is the first gun that I had to register federally (but not locally, thank God). I used to be an FFL holder but it became way too expensive for someone that was not in the gun business in order to make money.
:cuss:
 
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